Author Topic: Is this class Balanced?  (Read 12578 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2010, 12:33:24 AM »
Well, SOME people have 8th level spells at this point.  Others just have +15 BAB and some damage dealing abilities.
Right. This class, and all the Tome classes, are balanced around the first group, not the second. The second ones basically don't exist in Tome games.

Quote
The ability lets you burn down everything in sight, which could be quite a lot due to the lack of any range limitation.  It's not just mook killing... because you bypass hardness, you can burn a hole straight down to a mindflayer city and incinerate the entire thing, all while staying 5+ miles above ground where they can't hope to see you.
And just what is the hardness and hit points of "the ground"? And how long do you think it would take to burn down to the underdark? And do you think the mindflayers would just sit there and let you do that? I admit that perhaps it should have a range limit, but you know they probably didn't figure it was worth bothering with. If you want to break D&D and ruin the game at 15th level, you can, easily, in about 100 ways. If you don't want to, you won't.

Also, I think Frank just made up this class off the top of his head, and other people wrote it down like it was the Holy Gospel. I don't think he even bothered to ever go back and revisit it at all, from what I can tell.
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McPoyo

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2010, 12:35:02 AM »
Hardness and HP/inch of materials is listed in several books :P
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

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JaronK

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2010, 01:18:40 AM »
Right. This class, and all the Tome classes, are balanced around the first group, not the second. The second ones basically don't exist in Tome games.

There's that, yes.

Quote
And just what is the hardness and hit points of "the ground"?

See Stronghold Builder's Guide.  It's in there.  Earth has 2 Hardness and 30 hp per 3 feet, if it's packed (which I assume it would be).  Stone is 8 hardness and 1080 hp per 6 feet.

Quote
And how long do you think it would take to burn down to the underdark?

Depends on depth.  If burrowing through earth, you need to do 10 hp per foot, so if it's a mile down you need to do 60000 damage per square (luckily you hit them all at once).  At 15d6+Cha damage per round, halved, and -1 from Hardness each time, you're probably doing an average of 45 or so damage per round or 450 damage per minute.  Thus, it would take about two hours... but you can do it to an entire continent sized area.

Quote
And do you think the mindflayers would just sit there and let you do that?

They won't be able to see where it's coming from.  All they'd see is the entire surface burning down towards them.  They could run away or something, but it's still all cooked.

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RobbyPants

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2010, 09:30:30 AM »
Well, SOME people have 8th level spells at this point.  Others just have +15 BAB and some damage dealing abilities.  The ability lets you burn down everything in sight, which could be quite a lot due to the lack of any range limitation.  It's not just mook killing... because you bypass hardness, you can burn a hole straight down to a mindflayer city and incinerate the entire thing, all while staying 5+ miles above ground where they can't hope to see you.

JaronK
I'm not saying you couldn't.  I'm just saying that by the time you hit 15th level, the CR system would have you believe you should be capable of quite a lot.  I guess an army of CR 7 creatures is an exaggeration, but you're still expected to be able to take on 16 of them in a group of 4 PCs and only use 20% of your resources.  64 might be considered a "boss" fight.  So, that's not taking any specific class into account, but just levels and CR as printed.  Of course, some classes can do this magnificently, and others fail pathetically.

My point was, by the time you hit 15th level, the game has changed substantially.  Sure, having a fire mage running around in a world is dangerous.  If he decided to wipe out armies and towns, he could totally do that without breaking a sweat.  Of course, a 15th level caster could do the same.  Hell, given enough time, a 15th level fighter could do that.

In an actual fight against a 15th level opponent, Rain of Fire isn't that scary.  You're doing 52.5 + Cha mod damage per round.   :eh  What Rain of Fire does that some other PCs don't is it ruins plots faster than what some of the other PCs can.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2010, 05:55:37 PM »
At level 15, a Wizard (Or even a Sorcerer!) may cast Greater Undead to make a Shadow, killing commoners until he has several million shadows permanently under his control, and conquering the majority of the planet that way. Or he could cast Demand, state the full name of the King, and force the King to make a will save or kill himself/declare war/make peace with the orcs. And then there's Polymorph Any Object. 100 cubic feet per level of antimatter is an easy way to wipe out the planet. For something more reasonable but still game-breaking, he could Permanently turn his Psuedodragon familiar into a Half-Celestial Paragon Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon. Hell, turn a rock into a Half-Celestial Paragon Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon (which should last 20 minutes), then turn that into a Half-Celestial Paragon Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, making it Permanent. That should go a pretty long way to wrecking a campaign.

I'm not trying to say this class is weak, but the fact that a Sorcerer could do any of those things means that the Fire Mage deserves no higher than Tier 2, for sure. But the majority of what he can do is damage, and that sounds like Tier 3 to me.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 05:57:13 PM by Negative Zero »

bearsarebrown

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2010, 06:01:51 PM »
The extent and the range of the damage is what is campaign breaking. there is nothing that can stop him from living nations in minutes.

But we're quibbling. I think everyone agrees Low Tier 2, High Tier 3.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2010, 06:22:08 PM »
Other than the Necromancy Handbook, did Frank ever do any other CO handbooks?  I don't really have any use for his homebrew material, but I enjoyed the handbook and would read others that were about the standard rules.

He "invented" the Cleric Archer, but that was back on the 3.0e stuff.
And the number of times he got axed, counted high than ubernoob over here. (both of which were quite fun really)
But no, there wasn't any other Handbook type thing K / Frank did.
The Wish and The Word were lid-on-boiling-pot removing, and much complained against.
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Staff of Wish is a logical preface to any Wish cycling, like Efreet.
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snakeman830

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2010, 06:31:05 PM »
At level 15, a Wizard (Or even a Sorcerer!) may cast Greater Undead to make a Shadow, killing commoners until he has several million shadows permanently under his control, and conquering the majority of the planet that way
He can create the Shadow.  He can't command it to do anything.  (Greater) Create Undead does not give you control over the created undead.
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JaronK

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2010, 06:55:18 PM »
In an actual fight against a 15th level opponent, Rain of Fire isn't that scary.  You're doing 52.5 + Cha mod damage per round.   :eh  What Rain of Fire does that some other PCs don't is it ruins plots faster than what some of the other PCs can.

Precisely my complaint, actually.  In the sort of situations it's designed for (fighting a relatively appropriate amount of enemies) it's just an okay damage dealing ability.  But as far as mid campaign, it does plot ruining stuff (like suddenly incinerate an entire country or even wipe out an army in less than a minute, all from so far away no one can see who's doing it).  That's... poor design.  Ugh.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2010, 07:56:20 PM »
At level 15, a Wizard (Or even a Sorcerer!) may cast Greater Undead to make a Shadow, killing commoners until he has several million shadows permanently under his control, and conquering the majority of the planet that way
He can create the Shadow.  He can't command it to do anything.  (Greater) Create Undead does not give you control over the created undead.

It is implied that he will rebuke said Shadow. Its spawn do not count against the total number of undead HD he controls, however.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2010, 08:29:19 PM »
At level 15, a Wizard (Or even a Sorcerer!) may cast Greater Undead to make a Shadow, killing commoners until he has several million shadows permanently under his control, and conquering the majority of the planet that way
He can create the Shadow.  He can't command it to do anything.  (Greater) Create Undead does not give you control over the created undead.

It is implied that he will rebuke said Shadow. Its spawn do not count against the total number of undead HD he controls, however.

Or cast Control Undead. Control Undead is probably superior, actually, because if they kill the one you made first, you can just grab one of its spawn and that way you don't lose the chain of command.

RobbyPants

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2010, 10:34:08 PM »
In an actual fight against a 15th level opponent, Rain of Fire isn't that scary.  You're doing 52.5 + Cha mod damage per round.   :eh  What Rain of Fire does that some other PCs don't is it ruins plots faster than what some of the other PCs can.

Precisely my complaint, actually.  In the sort of situations it's designed for (fighting a relatively appropriate amount of enemies) it's just an okay damage dealing ability.  But as far as mid campaign, it does plot ruining stuff (like suddenly incinerate an entire country or even wipe out an army in less than a minute, all from so far away no one can see who's doing it).  That's... poor design.  Ugh.

JaronK
It is pretty poor really.  When I first read the thing, my only real complaint was the range on the ability.  You could get a flying carpet on a clear day and nuke about anything you wanted to.  I wouldn't mind it so much if it were anything within long or medium range, or something.  It can still ruin towns, but most level 15 PCs can ruin towns; it just takes then longer.
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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JaronK

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2010, 05:50:18 AM »
Agreed.  It would make FAR more sense if it had a range limitation.  I have no problem with someone who's supposed to be a fire mage being able to incinerate chunks of a town at level 15.  That's pretty reasonable.  But when you can burn through any material without problems from unlimited range over an unlimited area at will, it's just silly.  What stops this guy from just walking along slowly burning everything in his path through a dungeon (other than worrying about destroying some gear, perhaps?).

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2010, 06:22:01 AM »
What stops this guy from just walking along slowly burning everything in his path through a dungeon (other than worrying about destroying some gear, perhaps?)

Anyone with Acid Breath can do that, that's doable at a much lower level.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2010, 09:51:39 AM »
What stops this guy from just walking along slowly burning everything in his path through a dungeon (other than worrying about destroying some gear, perhaps?)

Anyone with Acid Breath can do that, that's doable at a much lower level.

DFA at level 1.
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JaronK

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2010, 10:16:08 PM »
What stops this guy from just walking along slowly burning everything in his path through a dungeon (other than worrying about destroying some gear, perhaps?)

Anyone with Acid Breath can do that, that's doable at a much lower level.

Acid Breath doesn't ignore hardness, it's just that acid damage isn't halved against objects.  So really, that would take a huge amount of time... even burning through stone has your damage reduced by 8.  DFAs certainly can't do it at level 1.  Also, it won't burn down massive areas at once, and has a range limit.  This guy could just sit at the entrance and burn everything, stopping only when he sees the glint of a shiny object (to take it) or a monster who starts out on fire (to finish it off).

JaronK

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2010, 12:43:55 AM »
Yeah the anything seen range is just screwy.  I mean, you can "see" the moon right?
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Akalsaris

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2010, 02:04:39 AM »
Yeah the anything seen range is just screwy.  I mean, you can "see" the moon right?

Would you miss it?  Would you really?!

Also, interesting stuff on Frank and K, awaken DM golem.  I enjoyed reading the Hidecarved Dragon thread(s) a lot back when I was first getting into CO a few years ago.

RobbyPants

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2010, 11:21:49 AM »
Yeah the anything seen range is just screwy.  I mean, you can "see" the moon right?
That's fucking awesome.  That seriously never even occurred to me.

Does magic travel through space instantly, or just at the speed of light?  You could nuke half of the universe if you really wanted.  The only things that would be safe would be the stuff "behind" the earth's current facing, or things behind other celestial bodies, which you wouldn't have line of sight to.

That, or you use the bullshit Spot rules in the PHB to determine if you could "see" it. :p
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Havok4

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Re: Is this class Balanced?
« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2010, 12:52:38 PM »
That, or you use the bullshit Spot rules in the PHB to determine if you could "see" it. :p

Which would probably work as a makeshift range limiter for that ability.