Author Topic: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder  (Read 1998 times)

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juton

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Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« on: August 18, 2009, 01:19:52 PM »
Normally trying to make Sword and Board not suck is a miserable ordeal fraught with failure  :banghead. Luckily I have access to some 3rd party material and a few house rules that might just give me a shot at success.

3rd Party Feats (Swashbuckling Adventures) and House Rules:
House rule - Shields add their bonus to Touch AC, if you are aware of the attack.

Parry - Like the Duelist ability, once a round you can try to counter an attack by beating an opponent's attack roll. Unlike the duelist though you don't have to sacrifice an attack to use it. Very Handy. House rules are that if you are using a shield you can parry ranged attacks, if it's a magic shield even spells that require a to-hit roll.

Riposte - If you successfully parry you can make a free attack with a free attack at your full attack bonus. More attacks that don't require any action are awesome.

Bruiser - Take a minus two to attack, add double your strength bonus to your damage instead of 1x or 1.5x. Melee attacks only, requires 2 BAB.

With Bruiser the only advantage to using a Two Handed weapon is the larger damage die (only +2.5 damage on average) and the ability to use Power Attack (Which is where most melee goodness flows).

Those feats are nice, but I need other sources of damage if I want to keep up with Power Attack, like the feats Knowledge Devotion, Blade of Force, Holy Warrior and Buff spells. This sound like a job for a Cleric!

The Build
[spoiler]
Cleric 2/Fighter 1/Cleric 2/Ordained Champion 3/Cleric +
I can pick and choose what I like from Pathfinder (the feat progression, skill system) but unfortunately I think DMM has received some form of Nerf in our group.

Feats:
1: Parry
H: Riposte
3: Knowledge Devotion - I take tens on these checks
F1: Bruiser
5: Weapon Focus - For Ordained Champion
7: Blade of Force
9: Holy Warrior

Then just metamagic feats, probably Quicken, Extend and Persistant (no DMM is painful).

I want to worship 'Magic', not a particular god because then the DM can fiat me into doing stupid errands. I want to take the Divine Magician ACF and the Spell Domain. I'm thinking I might want to be a spontaneous caster, while it's questionable I could use Anyspell to memorize more than one Arcane spell at a time and I can use Mneumonic Enhancer to prepare Cleric spells. Plus I can use both my reserve feats by leaving one spell slot available.

Improtant Buffs:
Divine Magician Spells (1-4):
1: True Strike, 2: Listening Lorecall, 3: Vampiric Touch, 4: ?Anticipate Teleport? 9: Maw of Chaos
I'm flexible to what over spells I should take. Maw of Chaos should work with the Ordained Champion's channel spell ability, so my enemy takes 20d6 force damage for 20 turns and is distracted.

Sign - For initiative
True Strike - To hit with certainty
Listening Lorecall - While the spells Blindsight and Greater Blindsight give much better range, the duration on Listening Lorecall lasts for a delve into a dungeon so it's a good defensive buff.
Lore of the gods - Magic is related to knowledge right? Probably, anyways +10 to all knowledge checks, lasts for 10s of minutes, synergizes well with Knowledge Devotion
Vampiric Touch - I can channel this to help protect my precious HPs and injure my foe.
Divine Power and Righteous Might are also handed, but with the Nerf to DMM they will only be situationally useful.

Sample damage break down by level, assuming an 18 strength and all the regular items to buff.
1: d8+4 - Good enough for Kobolds
3: d8+10 - Starting to look good
5: d8+13 - I should be keeping up
7: d8+18
9: d8+24 (28 w/BoF) - Respectable
20: d8 + 2d6 + 54, give or take a few points
[/spoiler]

So, as you can see my build is 'nice', it can consistantly put out respectable damage and maintain a high AC. But why don't I just go with the standard Improved Buckler Defense, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper (or just Gish with Wraithstrike). I've fired up Excel, at level 10 the Shock Trooper can do about 70 average damage on a Pounce, my S&B can do around 50 on a full attack. The Pouncer would have to give up the 2 reserve feats, so he could skip Ordained Champion and weapon focus but he'd still have to give up  another feat. Knowledge Devotion would probably go, so the Shock trooper could still get an extra attack in the round.

Going by the numbers though the Shock Trooper (even if he used flaws to get Combat Brute) only out damages my Sword and Board on a charge, only if he pounces, and his AC will be a lot lower after. So I think both builds are about equal, that being said I hope I've made a viable Sword and Boarder. Any ideas how I could improve it?
 

Anklebite

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 01:51:29 PM »
you can't take ten on knowledge checks- especially not in combat.
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Alastar

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 01:52:59 PM »
Why not get an animated shield and a two hander?

DerWille

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 01:56:55 PM »
 Are you allowed two flaws? Even though DMM has been nerfed, you might be able to take advantage of DMM Quicken instead. It would probably fly alot better with DMs who are suspicious about DMM antics. But can you find out what those nerfs have been? Are you allowed fractional BAB?

 Since you're going to be taking a level of fighter, you might be able to nab proficiencies with it too and take Cloistered Cleric for the free knowledge devotion. Also, how do you intend to meet Ordained Champion's special requirements of worshiping Hextor, Heironeous, or some other martial god through the adaptation rules?

 Instead of worshiping magic, can you see if you can get the Sovereign Host from Eberron approved? It loses two caster levels (ouch!) but you could pick up a ton of feats by taking advantage of synergy between Sovereign Speaker and Ordained Champion. load up on a bunch of domains and then funnel all of them into feats.


juton

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 02:33:08 PM »
Anklebite:
We housed ruled that I can take 10 on checks for Knowledge Devotion. It lets me write one number on my character sheet, I don't have to change it for every combat and in the end it averages out.

Alastar:
An animated shield is a +2 bonus, I probably couldn't afford it until after 10th level. As you can infer from my build I haven't planned much above 10th, most of the campaigns I play fizzle around that level if they get that far.

DerWillie:
The Sovereign Speaker class is a good idea. My DM knows about that class in particular, if I can talk him into it I'd definitely take it but he is hesitant towards anything too setting specific. If not we are a little lose with the qualifications of divine prestige classes, so I can get in as long as I have the right alignment.

I believe the DMM nerf was that you couldn't use it to cast a spell of a level higher than what you normally could. That was more an informal rule. I think DMM could work but it would only start to be worth it for spells like Divine Power and Righteous Might.

If I went Cloitered Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Ordained Champion 3, what prestige class(es) would you recommend for me to finish off my build?

Alastar

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 02:37:27 PM »
Well, a +3 shield is only worth 8000 gp, so it's not that bad.

Also, shieldbearer is a level 1 wizard/cleric spell that gives the animated property to your shield for 10 minutes/level.  Might be worth considering.

Church inquisitor to finish your build?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 02:41:30 PM »
you can't take ten on knowledge checks- especially not in combat.
The default is you can take ten, just not in combat.


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juton

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 02:54:16 PM »
@Alastar

I forgot about Shield Bearer, I'm AFB so I'll look it up, I'm pretty sure it's only minutes/level though. For some reason I double the cost of the animated shield, I could probably get it around 7th level.

@The_Mad_Linguist
If I go spontaneous I can just leave the slot open. If not I will probably keep Divine Power, Blade Barrier(it powers both reserve feats) and Power Word Stun. If I go prepared I'll try and get a version of Initiate of Mystra accepted (maybe lose the AMF jazz) so I can use Anyspell and Greater Anyspell more often.

JaronK

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Re: Help me optimize this Sword and Boarder
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 09:53:12 PM »
The best way I've found to do Sword and Board is to use Shield Charge and Shield Slam, or possibly Shield Block and Shield Counter.  As such, a Crusader/Cleric/RKV build would probably function how you want this to function, and yet still make good use of a shield, all without even needing third party material.

JaronK