Author Topic: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!  (Read 28673 times)

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McPoyo

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2009, 06:49:38 PM »
This also brings me to the issue of immunity, since I assume the player in question has some understanding of the rules, and knows well enough not to hurl fire flasks at devils (naturally immune to fire) or acid at demons (naturally immune to acid). I expect he should have something in his repertoire to cater to various resistances/immunities.

I'm going to call metagaming on this one. How would a rogue reasonably know what demons are immune to? I can imagine devils and fire because well ,they live in hell and all, but a typical rogue will not possess enough knowledge to know what resistances & immunities creatures possess.   


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bogsnes

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2009, 06:56:25 PM »
Which the Rogue in fact cannot make, because of the fact that it's only knowledge skill is knowledge local...

lans

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2009, 07:32:22 PM »
What about using Shape Soulmeld to pick up Winter Mask?

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TWF, Shape soulmeld gets d4 nonlethal cold touch attack. Still TWF with touch attacks, bet allows for flanking, and saves money. So the rogue will have an acid, fire, cold and holy water for what he can use to attack with.
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Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2009, 07:54:10 PM »
Well, if he is in doubt, round 2 (assuming he goes invisible round 1) he throws 1 acid, 1 fire, 1 holy water, and a couple of returning daggers. Then he asks "OK, which of those hurt it?" No metagaming at all.

dark_samuari

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2009, 07:59:41 PM »
Well, if he is in doubt, round 2 (assuming he goes invisible round 1) he throws 1 acid, 1 fire, 1 holy water, and a couple of returning daggers. Then he asks "OK, which of those hurt it?" No metagaming at all.

And unless he's as rich as Bruce Wayne, he'll still be going through way too much resources to sustain himself.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 08:08:26 PM by dark_samuari »

Nuntius Mortis

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2009, 08:10:08 PM »
And unless he's as rich as Bruce Wayne, he'll be going through way too much resources to sustain himself.

Rogues do not have that much wealth problem. Especially, in a city-based cloak-and-dagger game they can just sneak into a house and make some extra cash or use the perform skill to make some easy cash or talk someone into giving them some money or anything :p
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dark_samuari

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2009, 08:14:32 PM »
And unless he's as rich as Bruce Wayne, he'll be going through way too much resources to sustain himself.

Rogues do not have that much wealth problem. Especially, in a city-based cloak-and-dagger game they can just sneak into a house and make some extra cash or use the perform skill to make some easy cash or talk someone into giving them some money or anything :p

I'll agree with you that within that type of campaign it would be easier for a rogue to sustain themselves, wealth-wise. But there are some restrictions that come along with that: you can't be a good-aligned character, you have to be in a campaign which allows the freedom to leave an adventuring point, and you have to be in a city-based campaign.

Soda

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2009, 08:21:01 PM »
I hope you guys aren't serious about that. Wealth by level is assumed equal for all characters.

The point is, while your rogue is buying hundreds of potions and using them, other characters have something to show for their money at the end of the day, besides broken glass.

dark_samuari

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2009, 08:28:16 PM »
One of the few reasonable ways I could see is the rogue taking leadership to employ a warforged artificer or shaper and keep it in a portable hole to just craft for the rogue.

But even that is pretty damn sketch...

Nuntius Mortis

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2009, 08:35:05 PM »
I'll agree with you that within that type of campaign it would be easier for a rogue to sustain themselves, wealth-wise. But there are some restrictions that come along with that: you can't be a good-aligned character, you have to be in a campaign which allows the freedom to leave an adventuring point, and you have to be in a city-based campaign.

I agree on the last one (it has to be a city-based campaign) but you can be chaotic good, sneak up in rich houses, distribute money to the poor and keep some money to yourself in order to be better equipped in your cause of defending the downtrodden (kind of what Robin Hood did).
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Vinom

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2009, 08:37:55 PM »
I'll agree with you that within that type of campaign it would be easier for a rogue to sustain themselves, wealth-wise. But there are some restrictions that come along with that: you can't be a good-aligned character, you have to be in a campaign which allows the freedom to leave an adventuring point, and you have to be in a city-based campaign.
I agree on the last one (it has to be a city-based campaign) but you can be chaotic good, sneak up in rich houses, distribute money to the poor and keep some money to yourself in order to be better equipped in your cause of defending the downtrodden (kind of what Robin Hood did).
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Nuntius Mortis

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2009, 08:41:09 PM »
I hope you guys aren't serious about that. Wealth by level is assumed equal for all characters.

I'm not talking about starting a campaign at X level but what would happen after the campaign gotten started.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2009, 08:52:42 PM »
I'll agree with you that within that type of campaign it would be easier for a rogue to sustain themselves, wealth-wise. But there are some restrictions that come along with that: you can't be a good-aligned character, you have to be in a campaign which allows the freedom to leave an adventuring point, and you have to be in a city-based campaign.

I agree on the last one (it has to be a city-based campaign) but you can be chaotic good, sneak up in rich houses, distribute money to the poor and keep some money to yourself in order to be better equipped in your cause of defending the downtrodden (kind of what Robin Hood did).

Perhaps but if we're going to delve that deeply than we'll have to assume a reasonable gm will have repreccusions for this type of in-game behavior. You still from the rich, they'll get their money back one way or another. It won't be hard either to find your rogue using a distinct and unique combat method, just follow the trail of broken glass.

What is basically boils down to is, do you want this guy tracking you?

Nachofan99

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2009, 09:06:03 PM »
Well, making a rogue who only throws potions is about as useful as making a wizard who only uses Enchantment save or dies.

It is easy to make a build that SPECIALIZES in either of those two things, while retaining the ability to rock their other class features when their trick won't work.

Grenadier is a lame feat. The potion throwing rogue's investment in his hobby involves generic ranged and two weapon fighting feats. The same character gets some returning magic daggers or force javelin gloves, and then he switches effortlessly to a standard throwing rogue in fights where flasks aren't necessary or effective. The same character, if well built, can melee effectively.

A character who realizes that potion throwing is sub optimal in his circumstances, and KEEPS DOING IT, is either really badly built or not very bright. Flask Throwing isn't a build, it is a situationally effective tactic that can be effectively emphasized by builds.

+1 and double quoting "Flask Throwing isn't a build, it is a situationally effective tactic that can be effectively emphasized by builds. "

I don't know what you're hating on JaronK.  When the rogue can use flasks he'll do a ton of damage.  When he can't he won't somehow lose all his other class features because I don't think anyone plays a character that ONLY exists to throw flasks - they can just as well throw other things.


Soda

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2009, 09:08:29 PM »
I'm not talking about starting a campaign at X level but what would happen after the campaign gotten started.
And while the rogue is robbing houses, the wizard can go solo equal CR opponents, getting more loot plus xp.

Yes, you can always get more money. The point is, a potion throwing rogue has to spend hundreds of gp every single round of combat. While other characters are spending that money on magic items that don't end up shattered all over a dungeon floor.

JaronK

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2009, 09:09:42 PM »
What I'm "hating on" specifically is builds that are JUST potion throwers.  Builds that use it exclusively and are pointed to as proof that Rogues are awesome combat monsters, because they can make touch attacks all day long and do lots of sneak attack damage.  As a situational thing it's fine... a Rogue with 10 flasks of acid and 10 of alchemist's fire who keeps these around in case of the occasional Dragon is fine.  This is FAR more a reaction to people who claim that Rogues can have touch attacks all day long because they can use nothing but flasks.

And in a situation where there's plenty of wealth to be taken in a city and the DM lets you do whatever you want, it's not the Rogue who's making tons of money.  It's the Wizard buying cows, turning them into salt with Flesh to Salt, and selling the Salt at a profit that makes serious money.  Or the Wizard casting Wall of Iron and then Fabricate with Magecraft to produce endless suits of armor for sale.  If the DM's letting you get away with that sort of thing, plenty of classes can do it far better than a Rogue.

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Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2009, 09:18:22 PM »
I hope you guys aren't serious about that. Wealth by level is assumed equal for all characters.

The point is, while your rogue is buying hundreds of potions and using them, other characters have something to show for their money at the end of the day, besides broken glass.

That is a ridiculous exaggeration, until the very highest levels when such expenditures are trivial.

At low levels, say 1-5, the rogue doesn't even have the tools for ranged sneak attack. He is just a rogue with quick draw and TWF, maybe precise shot. He needs to flank or surprise attack, just like every other rogue. If he has flasks at this level, he has at most a dozen, for high AC bosses. This is less expenditure than a cure moderate wounds potion for the fighter.

After level 6-8 (rapid shot or his first iterative attack at +6 BAB) he has a reason to carry flasks. He will probably want to use 1 per round, for his iterative attack which will otherwise probably just miss. Assume 5 fights/level, 8 rounds/fight, with full attack every single round, thats 40 flasks, 400 gp/level. The wizard spent more than that on scrolls. Again, this will spike for fights with high AC opponents, but it will ensure damage in those fights.

At high levels, when the rogue is churning out 4-8 shots per round (2-4 from BAB, +2 from Improved TWF, +1 from Rapid Shot, +1 from haste) he can probably reach a couple of hundred shots per day (say 40 flasks per fight, 5 fights per day). Thats 2000 gp for 5 high ecl fights. Hell, he spent more than that on charges from his Greater Invisibility wand. What did he get from that? More than 200 average damage per round. He can solo kill with damage most CR 17-20 monsters in 1-2 rounds. If target is only fire or acid resistant, not immune, he drops to a feeble 160 per round.

Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2009, 09:27:03 PM »
What I'm "hating on" specifically is builds that are JUST potion throwers.  Builds that use it exclusively and are pointed to as proof that Rogues are awesome combat monsters, because they can make touch attacks all day long and do lots of sneak attack damage.  As a situational thing it's fine... a Rogue with 10 flasks of acid and 10 of alchemist's fire who keeps these around in case of the occasional Dragon is fine.  This is FAR more a reaction to people who claim that Rogues can have touch attacks all day long because they can use nothing but flasks.

What kind of junk would you put in a build to make it "JUST" a potion thrower? Grenadier? Weapon focus flask? Everything you need to be a supreme potion thrower can contribute to just being a well built ranged/twf rogue.

Nachofan99

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2009, 09:29:19 PM »
Can't you be a "throwing rogue" that gets to make touch-attacks against a wide variety of opponents and then not be crippled when there's a creature that is immune to fire+acid+holy water damage?

Won't your total number of opponents in an "Average" campaign that are susceptible to flasks be far greater than those who are not?

Past level 5, won't you have the option of using flasks liberally?  Past level 10 even more so?

Don't rogues have diplomacy as a class skill to try and barter for those flasks?  You know, buy in bulk and save!  Of course, making them yourself (or having the wizard do it) is a whole lot cheaper and if you're going to be using them in such quantities you most certainly would.  I think your costs are a bit exaggerated.

At level 1-5, I would suggest you don't "need" to make touch attacks because there are few enemies you won't be able to trounce using your rapier for 1d6+2 anyways.  Maybe we can agree that "low levels don't matter" in general, because no one seems to think Wizard's are low powered considering they have about 7HP at first level.  Whether we agree about that or not, we already have agreed that flasks are situational weapons.

TLDR:

I entirely agree that if you're being presented rogue builds that are JUST potion throwers (and ONLY potion throwers) - well they are not taking into account many of the "in game realities" you posted in this thread.  However, I think you overstate many of your conclusions that seem to paint a picture that flask attacking is unrealistically difficult.  It's not hard to effectively use flasks a large amount of the time, but it definitely is impossible to use flasks 100% of the time.  I just think that it's much > 51%, over the entire course of the character's life so it's one of your more powerful, and valid, tactics but not the only one you have as a thrower.

EDIT:

Braithwaite beat me to it.

Braithwaite

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Re: Potion Throwing Rogues: It's a Trap!
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2009, 10:11:45 PM »
Also, at mid levels, many fighters have a golf bag of magic weapons to deal with DR. We want magic bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, silver, cold iron, adamantine (obviously, they overlap). A flask thrower doesn't need all that junk. He just gets a couple of magic melee weapons, and pours the money that the fighter would need for his second and third backup weapon into his hewards haversack and flasks.