Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 520016 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #960 on: September 15, 2011, 10:42:26 PM »

[tangent]


This thread will get locked soon. Then what's the plan ?
 :(


[/tangent]

Gavinfoxx

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #961 on: September 16, 2011, 12:04:42 AM »
Mr Welch is an ACTUAL PERSON?!
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #962 on: September 16, 2011, 02:11:05 AM »
Quick listing those classes is easy. Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else.

6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall, you die.

Toss those unsorted classes into the tier they belong then let someone else argue them out.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Jopustopin

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #963 on: September 16, 2011, 05:13:20 AM »
I noticed that the Dragonfire Adept is still missing from the list.  It can be found in Dragon Magic.

We should make a list of all the 3.5 base classes that are missing from the list and maybe think about posting them when we remake this thread soon (it's nearing 50 posts).  Even if we don't know exactly what tier they are in due to a lack of experience seeing them in action we can either guess or put them in the first post as being under review.


Here are some that stand out:
Dragon Shaman
Magewright
Dragonfire Adept
Shadowcaster
Incarnate
Soulborn
Totemist
All of the Dragonlance classes
 Mariner
 Master
 Mystic
 Nightstalker
 Noble
 

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0

He's missing nightstalker!

Shiki

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #964 on: September 16, 2011, 05:40:03 AM »
^OMG I SO did not post about it in PBMC's thread, hmm... He'll update it soon enough anyway, I'm guessing. /swt
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Kethrian

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #965 on: September 20, 2011, 01:59:27 AM »
Mr Welch is an ACTUAL PERSON?!

Yes, and he truly does have a natural affinity for finding absurd thing to break the game with in the most humorous ways possible!

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #966 on: September 20, 2011, 02:05:34 AM »
Mr Welch is an ACTUAL PERSON?!
What, you didn't realize that?

Mind you, he hasn't necessarily *tried* all these things, but once you have a rep like that the preemptive bans just start rolling in.
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Kethrian

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #967 on: September 20, 2011, 02:37:51 AM »
Mr Welch is an ACTUAL PERSON?!
What, you didn't realize that?

Mind you, he hasn't necessarily *tried* all these things, but once you have a rep like that the preemptive bans just start rolling in.

And many of them are just things he would spontaneously think up and mention in general conversation, so they've never actually been tried.

The funny thing is, a fair number of them are actually legal by the rules, such as:
1524. The spell Extract Water Elemental doesn't work on Water Elementals.
5. Not allowed to blow all my skill points on 1pt professional skills.
152. When the guy is at -9 HP is not the best time for my cleric to convert him.

And one that I really agree with:
1782. I will remember we're playing 4th edition and stop using my imagination.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #968 on: September 20, 2011, 10:11:42 PM »

... I will remember we're playing 4th edition and stop using my imagination ...


 :lol  :D

Some of 4e might even make it to Tier 5 for a little while ... some but not much.

Byrandom

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #969 on: October 06, 2011, 08:16:20 AM »
Before I start, I am a big fan of the tier system, so I am not critizing the system per se here.
I just have some questions about the ranking of some classes.

First and most important, the druid.
I am very unexperienced with druids, so I'm surely missing something. My impression is that the druid is a really strong class, but that it misses what takes to be a real Tier 1.
Both wild shape and the animal companion are wonderful and they make the druid very flexible: he can tank, he can travel (by air, water and so on), he can scout, et cetera. But his spell list seems to me very limitated: he can't teleport, can't plane shift, can't planar bind, can't polymorph any object, can't gain extra actions, can't create planes or extradimensional spaces, no great BC spells expect for entangle. All he's got are good buffs, reincarnate and awaken.
Which are surely powerful, but is that enough to make him a Tier 1 class or am I missing some fundamental spells/tricks? What makes him so better than a sorcerer with polymorph? It doesn't seem to me much more versatile anyway (and raw power is not a problem for the sorcerer).

I am also unconvinced the favored soul is a Tier 2 class.
It has no access to domains or to turn undead (even though it's easy for a good favored soul to gain the latter via exorcist, it's not a class features). That limits him to the cleric spell list (no domains to expand it).
That means that the favored soul is very limited, since he must choose his known spells. He can be a great tank (buff spells), but he's no better than a crusader in that. He can be a great undead master (animate dead + dissecrate), but he's no better than a dread necromancer. He can be a great skillmonkey (divine insight and the like), but he's no better than a factotum. He can hardly be good at more than one of these roles. Moreover his lack of Knowledge (religion) as a class skill hinders the access to many options for divine spellcasters.
On the other hand, a sorcercer is really flexible, even with few spells known, because he has access to a better list.

Another ranking that seems wrong to me is the OA samurai's.
JaronK says that a fighter is already high in its tier, so high that a single class variant that merely improves his Intimidate checks is enough to make it tier 4 material.
I really don't see why the same reasoning doesn't apply to the OA samurai. He's basically the same as a fighter, but:
- It gives 2 more skill points.
- Its class skills are much better than the fighter's. It includes Diplomacy, Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate and Sense Motive!
- It exchanges the first bonus feat with the ability to create a magic weapon in exchange of gold. And this ability is based on the samurai's character level, so multiclassing is not a problem. It's basically an Ancestral Relic feat that you take even if you aren't good aligned.
- It gives three fewer feats, but only on 20 levels. Before 6th level the amount of feats is the same. And at 6th level, you are already taking your first prestige class, so really doesn't matter.
I think it's a better class than the Zhentarim fighter, which is already ranked Tier 4.

One last doubt. Would someone explain me why the rogue is Tier 4 and the Rokugan ninja is Tier 5?
The only answer I can think of is: no UMD. Because its class skills stay good (it's got both stealth and diplomatic skills), even if its skill points decrease dramatically. But in exchange, its fighting capacity improves (high BAB).
Or maybe was it converted to 3.5 and got nerfed (I'm looking at a 3.0 version right now).

Thanks for the clarifications.  :)

Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #970 on: October 06, 2011, 08:34:03 AM »
First and most important, the druid.
I am very unexperienced with druids, so I'm surely missing something. My impression is that the druid is a really strong class, but that it misses what takes to be a real Tier 1.
Both wild shape and the animal companion are wonderful and they make the druid very flexible: he can tank, he can travel (by air, water and so on), he can scout, et cetera. But his spell list seems to me very limitated: he can't teleport, can't plane shift, can't planar bind, can't polymorph any object, can't gain extra actions, can't create planes or extradimensional spaces, no great BC spells expect for entangle. All he's got are good buffs, reincarnate and awaken.
Which are surely powerful, but is that enough to make him a Tier 1 class or am I missing some fundamental spells/tricks? What makes him so better than a sorcerer with polymorph? It doesn't seem to me much more versatile anyway (and raw power is not a problem for the sorcerer).

Mainly because being one of the core casters their spell list was updated in nearly every book and is thus so large that you can find quite a lot of awesome on it. Tier 1 isn't about being more powerful than tier 2, just more versatile. Druids can swap out their spells daily and pick off their entire list.

The levels the druid really really outshines a sorcerer at everything are 1-8 (which is incidentally the area most people play in) and even after the sorcerer has polymorph it only lasts for minutes/level and takes up one of your spell slots where as wild shape lasts for hours/level and you can use it even if you were tied up and gagged (being a Su and all).

Other than that their spell list is filled with spells that will just end an encounter with no save. Control winds is a favourite of mine, anything smaller than gargantuan is completely disabled by hurricane force winds.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 08:44:55 AM by Littha »

Byrandom

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #971 on: October 06, 2011, 08:45:59 AM »
I know the spell list was expanded, but it seems to me that, being the flavor of the class unchanged (a nature controller), it didn't gain anything really new: just lots of useless blast spells and more buffs. Which are awesome, but they don't really make you any more versatile than a sorcerer, even if you can change them every day (unless there's something to buff any skill check).
I admit I am totally unexperienced with druids, so all I wanna know is what spells am I missing. The ability to choose new spells every day isn't enough: wu jen and death master can do the same, and the universal consensus says that none of them is Tier 1. What spell you can cast is fundamental.

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #972 on: October 06, 2011, 09:14:47 AM »
Much of the Druid's versatility comes from being able to cast spells while Wildshaped via the feat Natural Spell.  Summon Nature's Ally is pretty powerful, and it's very much battlefield control.

Perhaps looking at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070.0 would help.  Also, take a look at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0.  Both of those should clear up why the Druid can hang with the Wizard, Cleric, et al.

By the way, take a look at Shapechange.  It's Druid 9, and it's right there with Polymorph, and even better in some ways.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:22:24 AM by Jackinthegreen »

Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #973 on: October 06, 2011, 09:20:30 AM »
I know the spell list was expanded, but it seems to me that, being the flavor of the class unchanged (a nature controller), it didn't gain anything really new: just lots of useless blast spells and more buffs. Which are awesome, but they don't really make you any more versatile than a sorcerer, even if you can change them every day (unless there's something to buff any skill check).
I admit I am totally unexperienced with druids, so all I wanna know is what spells am I missing. The ability to choose new spells every day isn't enough: wu jen and death master can do the same, and the universal consensus says that none of them is Tier 1. What spell you can cast is fundamental.

Again, they have an enormous list and can choose every day. There are a decent number of Save or Suck/Dies (Baleful Polymorph is hilarious) lots of buffs and a chunk of battlefield control spells (Fog cloud, Sleet Storm, Control Winds, Spike Stones) on there even in core. Tree stride is a decent travel spell provided there is at least 1 oak tree every half a mile on the way to your destination and at higher levels wind walk can move the entire party pretty fast.

Also druids do have a decent number of skill boosters, mostly physical skills however:
Any skill: Guidance
Balance: Balancing Lorecall
Climb: Branch to Branch, Climb Walls, Spider Climb
Handle Animal: One with the land
Hide: Camouflage, Forestfold, Spiderskin, One with the land, Essence of the Raptor
Jump: Essence of the Raptor, Jump
Listen: Listening Lorecall, Essence of the Raptor
Move Silently: Forestfold, One with the land
Preform: Sirines Grace
Search: One with the land
Spot: Essence of the Raptor
Survival: One with the land, Essence of the Raptor
Swim: Swim
Wild Empathy: One with the land
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:42:08 AM by Littha »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #974 on: October 06, 2011, 09:53:05 AM »
Thanks for the links, but I already knew them. :)
Rereading the best spells listed in the Druid Handbook and your answers is actually reinforcing my opinion.

My point can be summarized in one sentence: I got it, druids are great at fighting.

Let me make an example.
I have a Tier 3 (or below) group. Then a new player join and decides he wanna be a druid. That will surely create problems (I'm not arguing druids are below Tier 2): the druid player is great at fighting, great at scouting, he's got good divination spells, and so on. Tanks, skillmonkeys and spellcasters are gonna say "WTF, that was supposed to be my job".
But if the group needs to go in another plane of existance, the druid is useless: he doesn't have planar shift. If it needs to teleport in a distant continent, again he's useless: there are no trees for magical travel. If there is some diplomatic situation to solve, he's (semi-)useless: ok, he got Diplomacy as a class skill, but nothing more.
A cleric or a wizard would have had the right spell withing 8 hours.

Let's take the same group, but this time the new player wanna play a sorcerer. There you go: his spell known are few, but if chosen wisely they allow him to accomplish all these jobs the druid couldn't manage. Meanwhile, there's still room for BC spells to win any encounter.

The basic point is: druids can't do anything. That's huge for a Tier 1 class. All the other Tier 1 classes have the option to do anything they want.

EDIT: About the OA samurai, I forgot to say that it also has good Will saves.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 10:00:44 AM by Byrandom »

Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #975 on: October 06, 2011, 10:25:41 AM »
Thanks for the links, but I already knew them. :)
Rereading the best spells listed in the Druid Handbook and your answers is actually reinforcing my opinion.

My point can be summarized in one sentence: I got it, druids are great at fighting.

Let me make an example.
I have a Tier 3 (or below) group. Then a new player join and decides he wanna be a druid. That will surely create problems (I'm not arguing druids are below Tier 2): the druid player is great at fighting, great at scouting, he's got good divination spells, and so on. Tanks, skillmonkeys and spellcasters are gonna say "WTF, that was supposed to be my job".
But if the group needs to go in another plane of existance, the druid is useless: he doesn't have planar shift. If it needs to teleport in a distant continent, again he's useless: there are no trees for magical travel. If there is some diplomatic situation to solve, he's (semi-)useless: ok, he got Diplomacy as a class skill, but nothing more.
A cleric or a wizard would have had the right spell withing 8 hours.

Let's take the same group, but this time the new player wanna play a sorcerer. There you go: his spell known are few, but if chosen wisely they allow him to accomplish all these jobs the druid couldn't manage. Meanwhile, there's still room for BC spells to win any encounter.

The basic point is: druids can't do anything. That's huge for a Tier 1 class. All the other Tier 1 classes have the option to do anything they want.

EDIT: About the OA samurai, I forgot to say that it also has good Will saves.

If you want to planar travel as a druid you "unfortunately" need levels in Planar Shepard. The thing is if the druid did everything that the wizard could do and then wildshaped and had an animal companion it would be above tier 1...

Mooncrow

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #976 on: October 06, 2011, 10:39:22 AM »
Tier 1 isn't about being able to do absolutely everything - it's about being able to break the game multiple ways.  And by that standard, it's probably the easiest class to break.  Most people's first experience with broken druid is along the lines of "whoops, didn't really mean to completely make the rest of you useless there".  That said, even by your standard, there are very few things a druid can't do straight off his spell list, and most of those he can do with creative Shapechange use.  

Byrandom

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #977 on: October 06, 2011, 11:39:50 AM »
Mooncrow, Tier 1 is actually about doing absolutely everything.


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.


The situation here is: we have some classes that can actually do everything. While we have some other classes that have basically the same options, but can only use a few of them. The name for the first kind of classes is Tier 1 classes. The name for the second kind is Tier 2 classes.
If a druid can't do everything, then he's no better than a wu jen, a sorcerer or a mystic. They can break the game in multiple ways as well. And one of them also prepare spells.

I think you really defined the druid in your post. He's great at stealing the other classes' role, but not very good at doing what other classes can't do.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 11:42:12 AM by Byrandom »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #978 on: October 06, 2011, 11:44:21 AM »
Mooncrow, Tier 1 is actually about doing absolutely everything.


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.


The situation here is: we have some classes that can actually do everything. While we have some other classes that have basically the same options, but can only use a few of them. The names for the first kind of classes is Tier 1 classes. The names for the second kind is Tier 2 classes.
If a druid can't do everything, then he's no better than a wu jen, a sorcerer or a mystic. They can break the game in multiple ways as well. And one of them also prepare spells.

I think you really defined the druid in your post. He's great at stealing the other classes' role, but not very good at doing what other classes can't do.
By the strictest definition of your highlight, Paladins are Tier 1, since Paladin 1 is the fastest route to Pun-Pun.  Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?
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Shiki

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #979 on: October 06, 2011, 11:50:09 AM »
Paladin 1 is the fastest route to Pun-Pun
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