Author Topic: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?  (Read 22486 times)

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necroramo

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Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« on: July 31, 2009, 12:51:12 AM »
The spellsurge is allegedly one of the things that makes sorcerers truly begin to rival wizards, so I heard, and as I looked at the spell I could see why. It makes your action economy awesome, because as long as the sorcerer does a standard spell and a metamagick'ed spell, you get two spells per round!

There's just so much can be done with this, but are there any particularly nasty combos that the optimization gods here have found that a normal person like me couldn't come up with?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 01:10:38 AM »
Well, the easy way to deal with metamagic is invisible spell, since it's a +0 modification, and is pretty sick on its own.
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Echoes

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 09:36:24 AM »
For Sorcerers, finding ways to selectively apply the casting time extension for metamagic (Rapid Metamagic, Instant Metamagic ACF, etc) can allow you to do truly silly things, like twinned repeating greater arcane fusion x2, each round.

In this hypothetical scenario, we're a Sorcerer-based Incantatrix 10 with Arcane Thesis (greater arcane fusion and orb of force), Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell and Repeat Spell) and Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell) (yes, it's feat-intensive, but we have bonus metamagic feats, so we can spare a couple). Now we can cast twinned repeating greater arcane fusion as an 8th-level spell. Let's say that inside our GAF we put a twinned repeating arcane fusion (containing a twinned repeating orb of force and some random first-level spell) and a twinned repeating orb of force. Let's assume we cast two of these GAFs in the first round. Anyone care to wager just how much firepower we're about to discharge?

Round 1:
Step 1) Two twinned repeating greater arcane fusions =  Four repeating greater arcane fusions, each containing one twinned repeating arcane fusion and one twinned repeating orb of force.
Step 2) Four twinned repeating arcane fusions = Eight repeating arcane fusions, each containing one twinned repeating orb of force and one 1st-level spell.
Step 3) Twelve twinned repeating orbs of force = Twenty-four repeating orbs of force.

That's 240d6 force damage in the first round of combat, plus whatever our eight random 1st-level spells were. But wait, we're not done. Because next round, we've got a whole new rotation of spells that are going off!

Round 2:
Step 1) Four greater arcane fusions, each containing one twinned repeating arcane fusion and one twinned repeating orb of force.
Step 2) Eight arcane fusions, each containing one (1) twinned repeating orb of force and one 1st-level spell.
Step 3) Twenty-four orbs of force.

There. We've resolved all of our Repeating spells from Round 1. However, we have some new spells this round, thanks to our G/AFs. So, let's resolve those now.

Step 1) Four twinned repeating arcane fusions = eight repeating arcane fusions, each containing one twinned repeating orb of force and one 1st-level spell.
Step 2) Eight twinned repeating orbs of force = Sixteen repeating orbs of force.

Ok, our tally now sits at 240d6 + 400d6 = 640d6 force damage. Let's keep going, shall we?

Round 3:
Step 1) Eight arcane fusions, each containing one twinned repeating orb of force and one 1st-level spell.
Step 2) Sixteen orbs of force

Alright, we've resolved the repeating spells from last round. Let's resolve the new spells from this round.

Step 1) Eight twinned repeating orbs of force = sixteen repeating orbs of force

We're now up to 240d6 + 400d6 + 320d6 = 960d6 force damage. On to the last round!

Round 4:
Step 1) Sixteen orbs of force.

Whew, all done. Our final count: 240d6 + 400d6 + 320d6 + 160d6 = 1120d6, or 3920 avg., force damage. Not a record damage number by any means, but for two 8th-level spell slots it isn't too shabby. We still killed just about anything outside of the Force Dragons. And the neat bit? We can spread that pain around in 112 discrete packages, so if we're up against a horde of mooks, we just took them all out. And this isn't even counting all those 1st-level spells we shoved in there. We have 32 of those, whatever they were. Lesser orbs of blah, maybe, or true strikes to help some of our orbs hit home, or maybe a whole bunch of obscuring mist, because we can always use more smoke.

The nice part is that we can do that 4-5 times a day with a decent Charisma score, a couple memento magicas, or maybe a rod of absorption, and we still have all of our other spell slots untouched.

Arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion are the reasons why Sorcerers do blasting better than Wizards, and arcane spellsurge lets you double up each round, spitting out twice as much crazy.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2009, 03:55:40 PM »
Balls thats crazy! I never looked at that spell twice dont' know HOW I missed it. Damn
bravo  :clap
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Kaelik

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2009, 10:08:11 PM »
One problem. Greater Arcane Fusion is an 8th level spell. Twinning and Repeating is a +4 and +3, after Practical and Easy and Incantatrix it is still a +1 and +1.

Greater Arcane Fusion is a 10th level spell.

Failzor.

Same for Twinned Repeating Orb of Force being a 6th level spell.

If you take Arcane Thesis on both of those you can get back to it though. For your first level spells, I recommend True Strike.

Also. Most of your repeating is crap, because they are already dead, and you need to select a different target, but oh well.

Negative Zero

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 10:13:31 PM »
In this hypothetical scenario, we're a Sorcerer-based Incantatrix 10 with Arcane Thesis (greater arcane fusion and orb of force), Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell and Repeat Spell) and Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell) (yes, it's feat-intensive, but we have bonus metamagic feats, so we can spare a couple).

Kaelik

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 12:05:45 AM »
In this hypothetical scenario, we're a Sorcerer-based Incantatrix 10 with Arcane Thesis (greater arcane fusion and orb of force), Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell and Repeat Spell) and Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell) (yes, it's feat-intensive, but we have bonus metamagic feats, so we can spare a couple).

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 01:05:11 AM »
And we can just make them invisible anyway for one more feat investment, which lowers it down to a ninth level slot.
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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 01:15:30 AM »
For your first level spells, I recommend True Strike.

Yeah, true strike was one of the things I mentioned near the end. My emphasis was on the stupid amount of Orbspam, so the 1st-level spells were kind of an afterthought in my example. True casting or assay spell resistance are also excellent choices if you go for an offensive spell that allows SR.

Also. Most of your repeating is crap, because they are already dead, and you need to select a different target, but oh well.

I know. Hence why I mentioned the bit about handling mook-swarms. Of course, you're not stuck with whatever you shoved into your greater/arcane fusions on Round 1. You can choose different spells for each iteration. So if you started your volley off with orbs of force, and found out the enemy had forceward up, you could switch over to twinned repeating scorching rays for the follow-ups. Maybe he has ray deflection running, which shuts down a lot of the better damage spells. Well, your repeated greater arcane fusions can contain twinned fingers of death, or twinned repeating baleful polymorphs, or basically any other 5th- or 6th-level SoD that you know. Maybe you decide to unload a volley of twinned greater dispel magics to knock down his buffs in the opening salvo, and then load the repeated greater arcane fusions with the Orbspam. That's the beauty of focusing on greater/arcane fusion - you don't lock yourself into any one spell repeating over and over. Yeah, your upper limit on damage will be lower, but as you pointed out, what I posted was a whole lot of overkill, so you have damage to spare.

And yes, I am aware that it's something of a late-blooming schtick. You're still a perfectly respectable Sorcerer/Incantatrix until you get Arcane Thesis + Easy Metamagic + Practical Metamagic all online, and it's not like Twin/Repeat Spell at +1 spell level is bad in any way.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 01:17:29 AM by Echoes »
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Kaelik

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 03:06:41 AM »
Technically, it's Twin and Repeat Spell at +2, since you don't get to be an Incantatrix until level 15, the same level you take Arcane Thesis Greater Arcane Fusion

The Lurker

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 03:45:46 AM »
Technically, it's Twin and Repeat Spell at +2, since you don't get to be an Incantatrix until level 15, the same level you take Arcane Thesis Greater Arcane Fusion
How are we getting an 8th level spell at character level 15?

Kaelik

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2009, 04:28:42 AM »
Technically, it's Twin and Repeat Spell at +2, since you don't get to be an Incantatrix until level 15, the same level you take Arcane Thesis Greater Arcane Fusion
How are we getting an 8th level spell at character level 15?

Well you have to be a Kobold Sorcerer (okay, or Spellscale) in order to do this at all, so you might as well be a Draconic Rite Kobold Sorcerer. It's not like Draconic Rite is a power issue when compared to allowing someone to take Incantatrix, even if they don't have that many buffs.

Akalsaris

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 05:45:51 AM »
Actually, you can also just take Draconic Heritage as a feat to do this effectively too - or play a race from Dragon Magic like Silverbrow Human. 

And I thought the calculations for the spll levels were accurate:

Twin +4, -1 Practical, -1 Easy, -1 Incantatrix, -1 Arcane Thesis.  Same for Repeat without the Easy Metamagic.  There's some weird stuff where Practical Metamagic says it doesn't lower past +1, so depending on whether your DM accepts the argument that you apply effects in the order most advantageous or not, it should work. 

Personally, I don't think it's all that exciting a combination, given that by 18th level you can be doing far more awesome things than roll hundreds of d6's, but it IS an effective use of the spells.

I did sketch out a build though;

Silverbrow Human Sorcerer 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage 5/Incantatrix 10/Anima Mage +2
ACFs: Dragonblood Sorcerer 1

Feats:
1st: Precocious Apprentice
1st: Sudden Extend
1st bonus: Draconic Heritage (Force)
3rd: Improved Binding
6th: Arcane Thesis (Orb of Force)
6th item: Iron Will
9th bonus: Repeat Spell
9th: Practical Metamagic (Repeat Spell)
12th bonus: Twin Spell
12th: Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
15th bonus: Persistent Spell
15th: Arcane Thesis (GAF)
18th bonus: Open
18th: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell)

Doesn't pull off the trick too well until 18th, but also gets Vestige Metamagic 2/day in addition to the 2/day Incantatrix metamagics, meaning 4 persisted spells/day in addition to the craziness with the arcane fusions and whatnot.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 06:42:27 AM »
That's still an Incant 10, which means you don't DO persisting with your Instants. You do it with Metamagic Effect at Incant 3. I would Quicken or Twin with Instants, or Intensify,in Epic. Unfortunately Wizards do that better.

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 12:30:59 PM »
Using a metamagic feat to extend the casting time of a sorc spell from 1 swift (under the effect of arcane spellsurge) to 1 full round, thereby allowing you to effectively negate the limitations of spellsurge and turn what would normally be a drawback (that spontaneous spellcasters take longer to cast a metamagicked spell) into a benefit of sorts (letting them quicken spells for free)...

Sheer genius! I would never have thought of looking at it from that perspective.  :clap
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Kaelik

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 05:27:25 PM »
Using a metamagic feat to extend the casting time of a sorc spell from 1 swift (under the effect of arcane spellsurge) to 1 full round, thereby allowing you to effectively negate the limitations of spellsurge and turn what would normally be a drawback (that spontaneous spellcasters take longer to cast a metamagicked spell) into a benefit of sorts (letting them quicken spells for free)...

Sheer genius! I would never have thought of looking at it from that perspective.  :clap

What? That's the actual intend of the spell. It's a Sorcerer only spell that reduces casting times of spells. If you aren't using it to get a free quicken what are you using it for?

Negative Zero

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2009, 05:32:38 PM »
Using a metamagic feat to extend the casting time of a sorc spell from 1 swift (under the effect of arcane spellsurge) to 1 full round, thereby allowing you to effectively negate the limitations of spellsurge and turn what would normally be a drawback (that spontaneous spellcasters take longer to cast a metamagicked spell) into a benefit of sorts (letting them quicken spells for free)...

Sheer genius! I would never have thought of looking at it from that perspective.  :clap

What? That's the actual intend of the spell. It's a Sorcerer only spell that reduces casting times of spells. If you aren't using it to get a free quicken what are you using it for?

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Incidentally, it's not Sorcerer-only. It's Sor/Wiz, and Wu Jen. It's just that the Sorcerer uses it the best. By far.

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Re: Arcane Spellsurge: best combos?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2009, 05:49:09 PM »
Using a metamagic feat to extend the casting time of a sorc spell from 1 swift (under the effect of arcane spellsurge) to 1 full round, thereby allowing you to effectively negate the limitations of spellsurge and turn what would normally be a drawback (that spontaneous spellcasters take longer to cast a metamagicked spell) into a benefit of sorts (letting them quicken spells for free)...

Sheer genius! I would never have thought of looking at it from that perspective.  :clap

What? That's the actual intend of the spell. It's a Sorcerer only spell that reduces casting times of spells. If you aren't using it to get a free quicken what are you using it for?

That same tactic is even mentioned in the spell's description.