Author Topic: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster  (Read 12473 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2009, 05:39:20 PM »
Heighten spell is what makes it truly a higher level spell, and not just a metamagiced lower level one.
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Anklebite

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 02:41:33 AM »
like my hieghtened-earthspelled versatile caster cantrip for casting a 0-lvl spell in a 2nd level slot as a 3rd level spell. yes, really. rainbow servant at level 2.

(the FAQ or some other semi-official something said that you could use versatile caster to caster meta-magick'ed spells of a level higher than you can cast, although they added an arbitrary "no more than one level above" clause. at level one, use two 1st level slots to make a 2nd level slot. then heighten either a cantrip by 2 levels or a 1st level spell by one level. earth spell adds +1 effective spell level.  thus counts as a 3rd level spell.  great for early entry, or for tossing a DC 13+mods sleep around at level 1.  or, since earth spell also bumps up the CL, you can actually be a viable blaster at really low levels... either by using CL 2-3 burning hands, or by reserve feat abuse [3d6 damage at will as a level 1 char is fun])

wow, those were long brackets.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 02:42:32 AM »
It's easier just to take "eldritch corruption" and get a free two-level heighten of a first level spell
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Psychic Robot

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 04:12:59 AM »
1) Does this feat allow spellcasters to cast a spell that is one level higher than should normally be able to. For example, a level 5 Druid sacking two level 3 spells to cast a single Summon Nature's Ally IV? Or a wizard sacking two level 3 spells for polymorph.

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I believe the answer given in the last round of FAQ by the Sage was that this could allow higher level spells if a metamagic version of a known spell were cast.  For example, a 1st level sorcerer could use two 1st level slots to cast an Extended Mage Armor if he had Versatile Spellcaster and Extend Spell.  Whether this grants said sorcerer actual 2nd level casting to qualify for PrCs is another question - I believe that RAI it certainly doesn't, but RAW it falls into nebulous territory.  As a DM, I wouldn't allow my PCs to use it to qualify, however.

While I don't believe this feat should work for prepared casters (see below), were it allowed, I don't think this would work for a druid, as he should only gain access to spells at the levels he can normally cast them at.  For a wizard, however, he can write a spell into his spellbook before being able to cast it, so I'd say hesitantly yes. 

2) Can prepared spellcasters make use of this feat to manage their spells per day to have fewer, more powerful spells?

For what it's worth, I think that the RAI is that Versatile Spellcaster only applies to sorcerer, bard, dread necro, and other spontaneous casters.  Druids with SNA, clerics with Cure X Wounds, and wizards with spontaneous divination or spontaneous summoning are able to spontaneously cast some spells, but they are obviously not spontaneous casters in the same sense as a sorcerer, which is all that a DM should need to point out before making a ruling.  It's similar to qualifying for UM with a single-class wizard using spontaneous divination, and then using UM to advance Nar Demonbinder - it's definitely not RAI, but it might pass RAW, which is enough for some DMs to allow it.

That said, I can see a DM allowing a prepared caster to take this feat, with the understanding that it will only be used with the spontaneous options.  Again, I believe that RAI it still would not qualify for early PrC qualification. 
I intend no offense, but a) the Sage smokes crack, and b) we're talking RAW, not RAI.

Akalsaris

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 03:13:22 PM »
No offense taken Robot :P 

But I tend to agree with the Sage on maybe 60-70% of his calls, and in this case the FAQ is also optimization-friendly (he could easily have said that no, you can't use it to cast a metamagic'd sleep at 1st level), so his ruling works out well for those who want to optimize versatile spellcaster. 

And I think it's silly to debate RAW without considering the RAI.  Outside of the tiny, tiny crowd of CO players here, who do you think actually plays by RAW?  I'd prefer to give an answer that might actually help a player in a normal game than simply ignore the probable intent of the rules' design.  Insisting that RAI shouldn't be part of the equation simply feels like deliberately eluding common sense to me.

This is a tangent and I apologize, but I'm going to rant for a bit about cases where I think a lot of CO players ignore common sense just to make something work. 
Tangent:
[spoiler]In order for white dragonspawn loredrake dragonwrought kobold sorcerers with greater draconic awakening and epic feats at level 6 to work, for example, you have to conveniently ignore the update to the dragonspawn templates in dragons of kyrnn which increase the LA from +1, ignore the RAI that white dragonspawn is intended for DM-controlled slaves to a dragon overlord, ignore that RAI that loredrake is clearly only intended for actual dragons with racial HD which gain cleric+sorcerer spells based on their dragon HD. 

Then you need to ignore the RAI that dragonwrought kobolds are intended to be true dragons within the bounds of the feats' benefits given within the book (which specifically includes aging bonuses), and not for qualifying for random-ass templates from Eberron sourcebooks or epic feats, which is itself a quirky rule found deep in the Draconomicon, then ignore the fact that you're mixing an obscure Eberron sourcebook with a Dragonlance book, and then add in a pretty obscure web enhancement to finish the deal.  The whole thing is like a goddamn tower of cards that won't work with any sane DM outside of CO, so why does it get brought up so often?  Just play a freaking CoDzilla and you'll still be more powerful without twisting a dozen rules to make it work.

I think you have a lot of situations where CO players want something so badly that they squint and pretend that RAI doesn't exist and that maybe certain words can be interpreted in such a way so that if you consider it from the right angle you get Y = X when Y is a character concept that is totally awesome but really weak within the game rules, and X is that perfect PrC that is almost impossible to enter without Z.  Mystic Theurge is a totally awesome X, but generally requires Wiz 3/Cleric 3 as a Z, which is totally lame, and is why Precocious Apprentice (Y) or a heightened versatile caster magic missile (also Y) is so often accepted, because we really want Y to qualify for X without Z.  The funny thing is, I think Versatile Spellcaster is a terrific feat on its own (that should probably be part of the core rules for spontaneous casters, actually), without even getting into attempts to use it for early entry to PrC X.[/spoiler]

Psychic Robot

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 03:33:54 PM »
I agree about the RAW vs. RAI.  (I despise Skip, though.  He's blatantly retarded, but that's a rant for another time.)  In terms of what I will allow in my games--or what I will use in games--I go with the RAI.  Anyone who tried the "RAW is law" crap that we see on the forums here in a game that I was running would be smote mightily as I hurled my laptop at him.  This sort of stuff is just theoretical optimization, though--at least, it is for me.  I would never actually try any of the stupid shit that goes on here like "cast miracle at level 6" or "rogues don't have to meet the pre-reqs for their bonus feats."  (I suppose I should duck as that last one is bound to start a ragefest.)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2009, 04:28:47 PM »
It doesn't actually take that much to negate the ill effects of the updated LA+1 version of the white dragonspawn template.  Dragonwrought kobolds are dragon type, and hence immune to the dominate effect.  Taking a level of mindbender gives you telepathy, which isn't one of the senses the white dragon overlord has, so he can't use it (given that he can only extend his own senses through you, rather than just use yours).  

Take Mindsight, put on a blindfold of true darkness, and stop up your ears with wax, and you can be pretty certain that the white dragon knows jack diddly squat about you.  Plus, you now have a great plot hook for the DM to abuse you with, and a pretty cool image.


Basically, as a DM I'll allow just about anything if it gives me a bigger change to screw over the players with their own choices.  And I can keep the white dragonspawn in line by pointing out that if he draws too much attention to himself he's going to get draconic enforcers coming down on him, and that'll endanger the white dragon, and if it dies, he picks up another two level adjustments.  And we wouldn't want that, would we?   :plotting

Similarly, since gaining a single feat, even a really awesome feat, isn't really that awesome on a rogue10 chassis, I let rogues take their bonus feat without qualifying for it.  After level seven or so you're far beyond the limits of mortal humans anyway, and the rogue running around with gape of the serpent eating people is just hilarious.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 04:37:25 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2009, 04:32:38 PM »
I agree about the RAW vs. RAI.  (I despise Skip, though.  He's blatantly retarded, but that's a rant for another time.)  In terms of what I will allow in my games--or what I will use in games--I go with the RAI.  Anyone who tried the "RAW is law" crap that we see on the forums here in a game that I was running would be smote mightily as I hurled my laptop at him.  This sort of stuff is just theoretical optimization, though--at least, it is for me.  I would never actually try any of the stupid shit that goes on here like "cast miracle at level 6" or "rogues don't have to meet the pre-reqs for their bonus feats."  (I suppose I should duck as that last one is bound to start a ragefest.)

I don't, but that's mostly because what passes for RAI in my group is VERY eskewed.
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Anklebite

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2009, 04:42:21 PM »
RAW and RAI are both fun, but keep in mind PrCs, templates and races can be easily reflavored to suit what you are looking for. white dragonspawn? how about ascended dragonborn servant of bahamut? just change it around a wee little bit, and BAM!, done.
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Psychic Robot

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2009, 04:50:59 PM »
Similarly, since gaining a single feat, even a really awesome feat, isn't really that awesome on a rogue10 chassis, I let rogues take their bonus feat without qualifying for it.  After level seven or so you're far beyond the limits of mortal humans anyway, and the rogue running around with gape of the serpent eating people is just hilarious.
I should elaborate.  The primary use for the "no pre-reqs" argument is to take Perfect TWF, which allows you to make as many offhand attacks as you do normal attacks.  If someone came up to me and said, "I'm taking PTWF because I don't have to meet the pre-reqs," smiting would ensue.  If someone came up to me and said, "Hey, normal TWF is a piece of donkey shit wrapped in a gooey cocoon of smegma, can I use my bonus feat to take PTWF?" I would consider it, depending on the level of optimization in the group.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2009, 05:07:40 PM »
Similarly, since gaining a single feat, even a really awesome feat, isn't really that awesome on a rogue10 chassis, I let rogues take their bonus feat without qualifying for it.  After level seven or so you're far beyond the limits of mortal humans anyway, and the rogue running around with gape of the serpent eating people is just hilarious.
I should elaborate.  The primary use for the "no pre-reqs" argument is to take Perfect TWF, which allows you to make as many offhand attacks as you do normal attacks.  If someone came up to me and said, "I'm taking PTWF because I don't have to meet the pre-reqs," smiting would ensue.  If someone came up to me and said, "Hey, normal TWF is a piece of donkey shit wrapped in a gooey cocoon of smegma, can I use my bonus feat to take PTWF?" I would consider it, depending on the level of optimization in the group.

I don't find that to be particularly bothersome. Considering the fact that the Rogue doesn't get that many nice things on his level progression (and his main damage booster is cramped by dozens of different things), I'd say that letting him take PTWF is pretty par for the course.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2009, 05:11:33 PM »
And is perfect TWF really any better than improved evasion?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2009, 07:39:20 PM »
And is perfect TWF really any better than improved evasion?

Properly optimized, yes. Improved Evasion is a defensive ability - if you need to defend yourself, you're doing it wrong.  :p
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Akalsaris

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2009, 08:16:32 PM »
Similarly, since gaining a single feat, even a really awesome feat, isn't really that awesome on a rogue10 chassis, I let rogues take their bonus feat without qualifying for it.  After level seven or so you're far beyond the limits of mortal humans anyway, and the rogue running around with gape of the serpent eating people is just hilarious.
I should elaborate.  The primary use for the "no pre-reqs" argument is to take Perfect TWF, which allows you to make as many offhand attacks as you do normal attacks.  If someone came up to me and said, "I'm taking PTWF because I don't have to meet the pre-reqs," smiting would ensue.  If someone came up to me and said, "Hey, normal TWF is a piece of donkey shit wrapped in a gooey cocoon of smegma, can I use my bonus feat to take PTWF?" I would consider it, depending on the level of optimization in the group.

How dare you choose to make an informed decision based on the situation at hand!  Rogues always qualify, hands down, end of story! :P

RAW and RAI are both fun, but keep in mind PrCs, templates and races can be easily reflavored to suit what you are looking for. white dragonspawn? how about ascended dragonborn servant of bahamut? just change it around a wee little bit, and BAM!, done.

I'm all in favor of reflavoring mechanical abilities (My pet peeve is that both UA and CC use animal totems as flavor for barbarians, so I've had DMs argue that I can't combine the Wolf and Lion totem variants even though they modify completely different abilities), but besides the flavor issue it's that the elements weren't intended for PCs in the first place. 

It seems clear to me that the whole "soulless follower of a dragon overlord who sees through your eyes and controls your movements at will" was an indication that this was a toy for DMs, not a challenge for PCs to overcome with immunity to charm and wearing a blindfold (and by the way, what kind of dragon overlord creates a follower who is innately immune to his control?), or by re-flavoring it.  Likewise, the original mechanical purpose for Loredrake was for DMs to distinguish different mature adult and older true dragons in the Eberron setting based on their personal role in the Prophecy - reflavoring it to an ancient clan of dragonwrought Kobold sages is clever, but you're still applying something intended for an entirely different purpose. 

And finally, as much as it aggravates me, flavor is not always mutable in actual games.  At least half of the DM's that I've played with refuse to reflavor feats or PrCs, as if there is something inherently cheesy in adapting a mechanical rule to fit a particular playstyle, even something obvious like adapting Radiant Servant of Pelor to a FR game.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2009, 09:44:36 PM »
Quote
And finally, as much as it aggravates me, flavor is not always mutable in actual games.  At least half of the DM's that I've played with refuse to reflavor feats or PrCs, as if there is something inherently cheesy in adapting a mechanical rule to fit a particular playstyle, even something obvious like adapting Radiant Servant of Pelor to a FR game.

Or how a DM of mine went out of his way to banish eastern elements off his campaign world, thus banishing shugenja, wu jen, monks and all the ToB classes.

Can anyone explain to me what the whole loredrake-there-are-too-many-words-for-me deal is about?
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Akalsaris

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2009, 11:09:17 PM »
Yeah, I had the same experience with 1 DM when I tried to use ToB - he decided it was too "wiaboo (Sp?) anime-esque" for his campaign.  Pfft to him.

I'll explain the whole kobold thing as concisely as I can, but keep in mind that I find most of it after step 3 to be pretty blatant rules abuse.  And it's also off-track for this thread, so I apologize.

1. Be a kobold.  For added power you're a Desert Kobold from UA, which changes your -2 Con for -2 Wis.  Let's assume you start at ECL 6 for this to work at maximum ridiculousness.
2. As your 1st level feat, take Dragonwrought Kobold from Races of the Dragon.  It's a very strong feat that makes you a true dragon with the dragon type.  That's where all the trouble starts. 
3. Set your starting age to venerable.  As a true dragon, you take no ill effects from aging, so you gain +3 Wis/Cha/Int for free. 
4. Take the +1 ECL adjusted White Dragonspawn template from the DLCS, blatantly ignoring that it was updated to +3 LA in Dragons of Krynn, and that as a creature of the dragon type you're not even eligible to take the template.  Also ignore the fluff about you being a soulless minion of a chaotic evil dragon overlord who can see through your eyes and can control your every move at will.  This gives a bunch of nice stat boosts and natural armor, and boosts your sorcerer level by 1. 
5. Buy back that level at 3rd level using LA buyback from UA.  Now you're a sorcerer 3 with +1 to effective level for all spell purposes.  You can cast 2nd level spells like Glitterdust, for example.
6. At 1st level, undergo the draconic rite of passage.  This is mostly worthless, but sets you up for #7.
7. At 3rd level, take the Greater Reservoir of Strength feat from the obscure Races of the Dragon web enhancement.  This too is mostly worthless, but sets you up for #8
8. At 6th level, undergo the greater draconic rite of passage from that same web enhancement.  This gives you +1 sorcerer level constantly.  Now along with that white dragonspawn, you're ECL 6, casting as ECL 8. 
9. Change settings abruptly, and turn to the obscure Dragons of Eberron.  Take the Loredrake alternative feature from there - it's meant for true dragons with innate sorcerer and cleric casting from racial HD, but you're a dragonwrought sorcerer, so it's totally the same, right?  You lessen your nonexistent dragon HD from a d12 to a d8 and sacrifice your nonexistent cleric casting, and in return for this nonexistent drawback you gain +2 to your sorcerer level.  Now, as ECL 6, you're casting as an ECL 10 sorcerer.  That's not caster level 10 - that is literally sorcerer level 10, meaning you can cast Contact Other Plane, Feeblemind, etc. 
10. Change to the Draconomicon, and note the one sentence at the intro to the feats section, that states that true dragons of old age or older can take epic feats.  You're a venerable dragonwrought kobold, so that's totally the same, right?  Now as your 6th level feat take an epic feat - how about Epic Toughness, for +30 hit points?
11. Step back and take a deep breath: you are now a Venerable Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Desert Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Epic Toughness.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2009, 11:59:55 PM »
So much here...

RAW vs RAI:
 Admittedly, I'm fairly RAW. In the games I run, I'll let people do what they want, because I feel that they wrote what they intended. Yes loop holes are in there, but if it increases the enjoyment of my players, I don't care. I'll increase the difficulty at a faster pace. The one exception to this is if, I have 1 player who wants to play the Venerable Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Loredrake Desert Kobold with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and Epic Toughness and the other 3 want to play, Fighter 20, Monk 20, and Rogue 20, I'm going to say no. Flip side, if I have a group wanting to play said kobold, Greenbound Ashbound Augmented Summon Planar Shepherd Druid, and The Wizard that Did it, but 1 guy wants to play Monk 20. I'm going to say no to the monk.

 My problem with RAI is that it can become an excuse for controlling and domineering behavior. And if that isn't a factor, how do you know what was intended? I see versatile spellcaster as a method of managing spell slots regardless of prepared or spontaneous (Even then, alacritious cognitition says that you can spontaneously cast any spell you know, so limiting there is a moot point anyways). I don't think it was intended for early PrC qualification or other spell slot tricks, but it can be used for that.

 That continues with classes, abilities, items, etc from campaign settings. I see those things as rules you can add that were included with the campaign setting so you don't feel that you wasted all of your money on a book that doesn't help your game directly but set up some background for a world a game could be run in. I mean seriously, how happy would you be if you bought a book that was 100% fluff? Many of those very same things were compiled into compendiums and weren't marked where they come from.

About that kobold:
 That is ridiculous even for me. I'd allow it, but I would totally play up the fact that you are soulless minion of an evil dragon who can control your every whim. Power's a bitch, isn't it? Although I really appreciate the creativity it took to make that character.




The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2009, 12:05:29 AM »
Yeah, I had the same experience with 1 DM when I tried to use ToB - he decided it was too "wiaboo (Sp?) anime-esque" for his campaign.  Pfft to him.

I'll explain the whole kobold thing as concisely as I can, but keep in mind that I find most of it after step 3 to be pretty blatant rules abuse.  And it's also off-track for this thread, so I apologize.

1. Be a kobold.  For added power you're a Desert Kobold from UA, which changes your -2 Con for -2 Wis.  Let's assume you start at ECL 6 for this to work at maximum ridiculousness.
2. As your 1st level feat, take Dragonwrought Kobold from Races of the Dragon.  It's a very strong feat that makes you a true dragon with the dragon type.  That's where all the trouble starts.  
3. Set your starting age to venerable.  As a true dragon, you take no ill effects from aging, so you gain +3 Wis/Cha/Int for free.  
4. Take the +1 ECL adjusted White Dragonspawn template from the DLCS, blatantly ignoring that it was updated to +3 LA in Dragons of Krynn, and that as a creature of the dragon type you're not even eligible to take the template.  Also ignore the fluff about you being a soulless minion of a chaotic evil dragon overlord who can see through your eyes and can control your every move at will.  This gives a bunch of nice stat boosts and natural armor, and boosts your sorcerer level by 1.  
You have the order wrong here.  The template is applied before your first level.  That is, you become a dragon from dragonwrought AFTER the template is applied.  Furthermore, dragons of krynn isn't WotC material, and has two listed LAs for the template - one that's still LA+1, which is the one where the dragon overlord can see through your eyes and hit you with dominate person (which doesn't work, since you're a dragon, not a person), and one that's LA +3, which doesn't tie you to an overlord.  
5. Buy back that level at 3rd level using LA buyback from UA.  Now you're a sorcerer 3 with +1 to effective level for all spell purposes.  You can cast 2nd level spells like Glitterdust, for example.
6. At 1st level, undergo the draconic rite of passage.  This is mostly worthless, but sets you up for #7.
7. At 3rd level, take the Greater Reservoir of Strength feat from the obscure Races of the Dragon web enhancement.  This too is mostly worthless, but sets you up for #8
8. At 6th level, undergo the greater draconic rite of passage from that same web enhancement.  This gives you +1 sorcerer level constantly.  Now along with that white dragonspawn, you're ECL 6, casting as ECL 8.  
Not really that obscure.  Web content is higher on the availability hierarchy than any book that you actually have to pay money for - anyone you're playing with has internet access, but not everyone can afford to purchase books.  Games I DM are always open web content.

Quote
9. Change settings abruptly, and turn to the obscure Dragons of Eberron.  Take the Loredrake alternative feature from there - it's meant for true dragons with innate sorcerer and cleric casting from racial HD, but you're a dragonwrought sorcerer, so it's totally the same, right?  You lessen your nonexistent dragon HD from a d12 to a d8 and sacrifice your nonexistent cleric casting, and in return for this nonexistent drawback you gain +2 to your sorcerer level.  Now, as ECL 6, you're casting as an ECL 10 sorcerer.  That's not caster level 10 - that is literally sorcerer level
10, meaning you can cast Contact Other Plane, Feeblemind, etc.  
"If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron".  There's a bit of explicit mention "Those wholly unable to cast cleric spells lose nothing when they adopt a Sovereign archetype." - that is, there's precedent for getting freebie with no downsides from following a sovereign archetype. 

Quote
10. Change to the Draconomicon, and note the one sentence at the intro to the feats section, that states that true dragons of old age or older can take epic feats.  You're a venerable dragonwrought kobold, so that's totally the same, right?  Now as your 6th level feat take an epic feat - how about Epic Toughness, for +30 hit points?

Quote from: Races of the dragon, page 39, Table 3-2: Kobold age categories:
Old  41 to 60 years
Very old  61 to 80 years
Ancient  81 to 100 years
Wyrm  101 to 120 years
Great wyrm  121 years or older
Since venerable is >120 years, and you've already stated that kobolds are true dragons, I can't really see any rules interpretation other than that it applies.  Access to epic feats isn't really that good, given that most prereqs are along the lines of BAB+21, or something like that.  Epic toughness is close to the high end, and even +30 hp isn't spectacular.  Personally, I pick energy resistance: fire, and set myself on fire, taking no damage.

That said, in my campaign setting the first dragons were created by kobolds as guardians for the wealth of their mines, the product of a ritual.  They literally sprung forth from sorcerous blood.  The first were fire breathers, useful in smithing, but different variations upon the formula were created for different regions, until there's the wide range of dragons available to this day.  This neatly explains away how dragons get their treasure hordes in the first place, why kobold mines never have any loot you'd expect them to have if they're mining for gold, and why dragons so easily breed with humanoids.

Double edit: Yeah, that was pretty dickish.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 04:14:51 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Anklebite

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2009, 02:01:16 AM »
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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2009, 03:53:56 PM »
Linguist, I'm pretty sure that I don't like the way that you edited your post to be more confrontational about this than yesterday.  Shockingly enough, I am aware of homebrew systems - but there are also plenty of games that aren't homebrew, and games that are homebrew that still don't allow flavor to be changed from written materials.  Gods knows I'm in 2 homebrew campaigns right now where that's the case. 

If you want, we can continue this via PM, but I'm fairly sure that neither of us will convince the other, so let's just agree to disagree. 

That's an interesting variant history you have for kobolds and dragons, by the way.  I assume that in your campaigns kobolds used to be much more powerful, and then they were usurped by the guardians that they created, eventually forgetting their arcane secrets?  A little like the Irda/Ogres in Krynn, basically?