Author Topic: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster  (Read 12475 times)

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DerWille

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Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« on: July 31, 2009, 12:34:02 AM »
 I don't want to derail Gr1lledcheese's thread about his Druid, so I'll ask my questions here. I should mention that I'm not siding one way or another, but instead I'm trying to better understand what these rules imply. Anyways, in what ways can a prepared spellcaster such as a Druid, Cleric, or Wizard make use of this feat? I'll rewrite what it does.

Versatile Spellcaster
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to Spontaneously cast spells
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

My questions are:

1) Does this feat allow spellcasters to cast a spell that is one level higher than should normally be able to. For example, a level 5 Druid sacking two level 3 spells to cast a single Summon Nature's Ally IV? Or a wizard sacking two level 3 spells for polymorph.
2) Can prepared spellcasters make use of this feat to manage their spells per day to have fewer, more powerful spells?

Quote
Gr1lledcheese wrote:
There is a catch to it. I'm not sure if it was errataed or if it's simply RAI, but I believe you can't cast a spell from a spell level you aren't able to cast from yet. So to sacrifice two 3rd level spell at level 5 would give me a 4th level spell that I couldn't use yet  Smile

 There is no errata for races of the dragon to my knowledge. Perhaps RAI, but I see this feat more about spell slot management than versatility. You could say that it lets you be more versatile by choosing how many "big gun" spells you have a day, but I have a hard time buying that is more versatile than simply being able to spontaneously cast spells.

 Mechanically, a given spell caster's ability to cast spells is decided by their spell slots. I see two points on this. Paladins and Rangers receive a 0 at certain levels to show that they are capable of casting but do not receive a slot for. Therefore, that dash in the next level spells means that the caster cannot cast spells of that level. On the other hand, by virtue of the fact that I now have that slot mean that I can cast spells of that level as long as they are known to me?

Quote
Negative Zero wrote:
You combine the spell slots at casting time, but you can't cast anything from that slot because you have to prepare something in them, which takes time. Dread Necromancers, Beguilers, and Warmages, however, don't have that problem.

 If a prepared spellcaster were to sacrifice those two slots during the adventuring day that would be the case, but what if they did so during preparation? The next is from the player's handbook, emphasis is mine.

Quote
Player's Handbook page 178, under Spell Selection and Preparation:
The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish the when it's needed, even if she is under considerable pressure.

 In other words, all prepared spellcasters begin casting their spells during preparation. Thus a prepared spellcaster must choose whether or not to combine slots at preparation rather than on the fly.
 

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 06:21:22 AM »
DerWille,

Omen of Peace and I discussed this at length, and with different perspectives, here.

The discussion centres more on the capability to cast a spell of a higher level than standard than on your questions regarding the logistics of it, if that makes sense.

My view will become obvious on reading the post, but the Theurge Handbook might have some useful info otherwise.

I hope it helps.

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DerWille

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 08:15:52 AM »
Thanks for the reply. It seems like I'm poking a beehive with a stick with this post.

 I believe I understand what you mean by capability vs logistics, but I've always thought of one's capability to be based on the logistics of doing it. However, I have a tendency to distort things so they fit my view of the world and may miss your point.

 I place more value on the second of my two questions. I see the ability to manage spell slots infinitely more important than a theoretical and debatable trick on casting spells that you shouldn't be able to cast otherwise. If I know I'm not going to be able to make use of my level 1 or 0 spells, I would rather trade them away for spells that I know that I will be able to make use of.

 The understanding I've come to after reading that thread is that every spell has a minimum caster level requirement equal to the level of when that level is available to the base class. Using the example in the player's handbook, fireball has a minimum caster level requirement of 5. That fireball may only be weakened to level 5 but may be raised to your maximum.

 In that case the trick seems to be in raising your caster level higher than it normally should then creating a slot for it with versatile spell caster. With a bit of work that would mean that it's entirely possible to cast spells earlier than we should be able to (I'm looking at you master specialist). And if this really is the case, versatile spellcaster deserves a handbook to itself.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 08:47:01 AM »
As an interesting exercise, have a read of this.

I agree, Versatile Spellcaster does need a Handbook of it's own.

Go for it, I say.

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DerWille

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 09:25:19 AM »
 And if what customer service says is correct, that completely contradicts what's written in the player's handbook. After reading most of that thread, I can only say that customer service is wrong. A caster level of -3 means that it is impossible to cast spells.

 I thought about it, but I feel uneasy writing a guide on something that I don't fully understand myself.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 10:38:29 AM »
And if what customer service says is correct, that completely contradicts what's written in the player's handbook. After reading most of that thread, I can only say that customer service is wrong. A caster level of -3 means that it is impossible to cast spells.

 I thought about it, but I feel uneasy writing a guide on something that I don't fully understand myself.

Customer Service has the reliability of a wet paper bag in a thunderstorm. They're only good for goading gullible DMs.
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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 11:49:52 AM »

Versatile Spellcaster
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to Spontaneously cast spells
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

My questions are:

1) Does this feat allow spellcasters to cast a spell that is one level higher than should normally be able to. For example, a level 5 Druid sacking two level 3 spells to cast a single Summon Nature's Ally IV? Or a wizard sacking two level 3 spells for polymorph.

For question 1 it seems plain within the text of the feat that you can only cast a spell that you KNOW.  Being on your spell list is not enough.  The letter of this feat would make a slot available but the absence of a spell known at that level would make it unusable.  Let me make a caveat to that last statement.  The higher than normal spell slot should be able to apply a +1 metamagic feat such as extend if the caster has to ability to spontaneously apply said metamagic.   


2) Can prepared spellcasters make use of this feat to manage their spells per day to have fewer, more powerful spells?


Seems to me that the answer should be Yes but only in trading those slots for the spells the caster is actually able to spontaneously cast.

If a prepared spellcaster were to sacrifice those two slots during the adventuring day that would be the case, but what if they did so during preparation? The next is from the player's handbook, emphasis is mine.

Quote
Player's Handbook page 178, under Spell Selection and Preparation:
The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish the when it's needed, even if she is under considerable pressure.

In other words, all prepared spellcasters begin casting their spells during preparation. Thus a prepared spellcaster must choose whether or not to combine slots at preparation rather than on the fly.

Intent of the feat aside I have to say that the RAW could indeed be interpreted to allow such an exchange.  It is amusing because to stop this line of thought all they had to do was note in the Benefit that you can trade two spell slots to "spontaneously" cast a spell of one level higher.

Cheers.
 




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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 05:44:25 PM »
I think the requirement of being able to spontaneously cast would be a pretty big hit to the idea.  The Wizard is definitely out and I don't think the Druid and Cleric's ability to spontaneously cast certain spells would exactly work.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 10:04:53 PM »
I think the requirement of being able to spontaneously cast would be a pretty big hit to the idea.  The Wizard is definitely out and I don't think the Druid and Cleric's ability to spontaneously cast certain spells would exactly work.

The Wizard can get access to the Spontaneous Divination ACF, which should theoretically qualify him for Versatile Spellcaster (but only for divinations).

Cleric/Druid spell conversion + Versatile Spellcaster is the source of many an early entry trick. It is considered acceptable by RAW, but many DMs wouldn't let it fly.
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DerWille

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2009, 10:49:00 PM »

Versatile Spellcaster
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to Spontaneously cast spells
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

My questions are:

1) Does this feat allow spellcasters to cast a spell that is one level higher than should normally be able to. For example, a level 5 Druid sacking two level 3 spells to cast a single Summon Nature's Ally IV? Or a wizard sacking two level 3 spells for polymorph.

For question 1 it seems plain within the text of the feat that you can only cast a spell that you KNOW.  Being on your spell list is not enough.  The letter of this feat would make a slot available but the absence of a spell known at that level would make it unusable.  Let me make a caveat to that last statement.  The higher than normal spell slot should be able to apply a +1 metamagic feat such as extend if the caster has to ability to spontaneously apply said metamagic.  


2) Can prepared spellcasters make use of this feat to manage their spells per day to have fewer, more powerful spells?


Seems to me that the answer should be Yes but only in trading those slots for the spells the caster is actually able to spontaneously cast.

If a prepared spellcaster were to sacrifice those two slots during the adventuring day that would be the case, but what if they did so during preparation? The next is from the player's handbook, emphasis is mine.

Quote
Player's Handbook page 178, under Spell Selection and Preparation:
The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish the when it's needed, even if she is under considerable pressure.

In other words, all prepared spellcasters begin casting their spells during preparation. Thus a prepared spellcaster must choose whether or not to combine slots at preparation rather than on the fly.

Intent of the feat aside I have to say that the RAW could indeed be interpreted to allow such an exchange.  It is amusing because to stop this line of thought all they had to do was note in the Benefit that you can trade two spell slots to "spontaneously" cast a spell of one level higher.

Cheers.

 I'll split up my counter into 1 and 2 for both questions.

1) However Wizards', Clerics', and Druids' (Maybe Archivists, but I know nothing about them) spells known are not necessarily dependent on class levels. For Wizards, their spells known is whatever is in any spell book they can get their hands on. So if a theoretical Wizard wanted to learn a higher level spell, he could research it. Player characters can even join organizations that have massive libraries full knowledge and spells, the Paragonistic Assembly from the Complete Champion is an amazing example of this.

 Clerics and Druids have it even easier.

Quote
Dungeon Master's Guide, page 198 under Learning New Spells:
Divine Spellcasters just get new spells when they gain the ability to cast them.

Quote
Player's Handbook, page 180 under Spells Gained at New Level:
Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns the new spells from that level automatically.

 There is a contradiction on how the Cleric or Druid gains new spells but the result is the same, when the Cleric has the ability to cast spells of a certain level, they receive all of them. Thus, they know all spells of whatever level they can currently cast. So with a high enough caster level and the open spell slot provided by versatile spellcaster, it should be possible to cast spells of a higher level than normal.

2) Possibly, but feats like Alacritous Cogitation and Uncanny Forethought could bypass it. And to be honest, this is an ability that is so important to a spellcaster, it should really be a class feature. I can't stress how important I believe the ability to manage spell slots is.




I think the requirement of being able to spontaneously cast would be a pretty big hit to the idea.  The Wizard is definitely out and I don't think the Druid and Cleric's ability to spontaneously cast certain spells would exactly work.

 It's surprisingly not that important. Druids and Clerics automatically pass the test because they can spontaneously cast certain spells. The feat doesn't say, "Spontaneously cast all spells available to you", it just says, "The ability to spontaneously cast spells". If you wanted to be a hard ass about it, you could possibly say that, "Spells is plural! You need to be able to cast multiple spells." But even that wouldn't stop it, any class feature that would allow a Cleric to spontaneously cast domain spells would allow them to qualify. Druids qualify automatically because they can spontaneously cast any Summon Nature's Ally. Thus once they hit level 3, they have multiple spells the can spontaneously cast. The same logic will work for Clerics and their healing/inflict spells.

 Wizards get around this with a bit more work, the Spontaneous Summoning ACF from Unearthed Arcana is a simple but horrible way to go about it. The Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion fulfills the prereqs easily enough. Also two feats come to mind, Alacritous Cogtitation and Uncanny Forethought. Each one lets you to spontaneously cast any spell that you under different circumstances once a day.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 12:00:53 AM by DerWille »

Cavalry_Medic

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 06:09:29 PM »
I believe Clerics qualify for this feat by virtue of Spontaneously Casting heal/inflicts.
I believe Druids qualify for this feat by virtue of Spontaneousl Summoning Natures Ally.
Wizards are but a feat (or ACF?) from qualifying.
Archivists, Paladins and Rangers may be the only ones out in the cold.

I know this doesn't directly answer the questions, but I felt it belonged in the discussion.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2009, 08:09:08 PM »
1) Does this feat allow spellcasters to cast a spell that is one level higher than should normally be able to. For example, a level 5 Druid sacking two level 3 spells to cast a single Summon Nature's Ally IV? Or a wizard sacking two level 3 spells for polymorph.
I believe that wizards never "know" their spells in the sense that the game-defined term of "knowing" spells refers specifically to spontaneous spellcasters and their spells known list.  Nevermind that:

Quote from: SRD
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook
I'm not sure about the druid, though.

Quote
2) Can prepared spellcasters make use of this feat to manage their spells per day to have fewer, more powerful spells?
It looks like that is possible.

The only real rules-lawyery use I'm getting from this feat is the possible early qualification for prestige classes that require the ability to cast level X spells.

EDIT:
Quote from: SRD
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

So, no, you can't cast a spell of a higher level unless your caster level meets the minimum.  That means you'll have to get CL-boosting items to utilize any possible loopholes effectively.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 08:21:47 PM by Psychic Robot »

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 09:15:30 PM »
Quote
Player's Handbook page 178, under Spell Selection and Preparation:
The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of the spell ahead of time and finish the when it's needed, even if she is under considerable pressure.
This is flavor text, and isn't using technical language.  If it were actual crunch, since it's not related to character creation or XP gains, it'd be included in the srd.  It isn't, so it isn't.

You see, I can just as easily refer to the srd's rules on casting spells, and say
Quote
Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
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DerWille

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 10:08:31 PM »
Quote from: SRD
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

So, no, you can't cast a spell of a higher level unless your caster level meets the minimum.  That means you'll have to get CL-boosting items to utilize any possible loopholes effectively.


 I've come to see this but it doesn't sit well with me because how do Rangers and Paladins cast spells? by RAW at level 4 they have a caster level of 2 (CL = 1/2 class level), which is 2 levels lower than what need to cast. By level 20, they have a caster level of 10 and are unable to cast half their spell slots unless they pick up practiced spell caster or something else that boosts their caster level.

 I'm generally a RAW type of guy, the rules they intended are the rules they wrote, but in this case RAI seems to nag at me. Were Rangers and Paladins really intended not to be able to cast spells when they receive their first slots? Were they really intended not to ever be able to cast their 4th level spells?

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 03:02:27 AM »
If that were the case, I would assume that half-casters like rangers and paladins follow their own set of rules regarding caster level.  However, look at the caster levels at which a ranger gets his spells:

Level 1: CL 2
Level 2: CL 4
Level 3: CL 5
Level 4: CL 7

All of those meet the minimum required caster levels to cast spells off the standard lists.  Since a fourth-level spell requires a CL of 7 to cast, the ranger meets the prerequisites.  However, this is a little wonky because rangers and the like have their own separate spell lists.

Thus, we must go to the rules.
Quote
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

This is terribly written.  "You can only cast a spell if your caster level would let you cast the spell."  By RAW, this doesn't mean anything, given that the rules don't specify what minimum CL you need to cast a spell.  What the rules intend, I suspect, is that your caster level for casting spells must be equal to the caster level you have when you first get the spells.

Think of it this way:

The minimum CL that a ranger can cast third-level spells is CL 5 because that's when he gets them.  Similarly, a sorcerer's minimum CL for fireball is actually CL 6 (unlike the wizard's CL 5) because that's the minimum sorcerer level he needs to cast the spells.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 03:19:41 AM »
you're right, the phase basically translates to "A = A" by raw, without giving any definite values for A.  so, for TO purposes, that part of the rules can be ignored due to a lack of actual requirement.


anyways, the artificer craft rules are a fun tangent to it.  a specific note is being able to make a CL 3 scroll of fireball.  however, in that particular example, the artificer gets +2 CL for the purposes as counting as minimum requirements, so that doesn't really move the argument towards either side.
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DerWille

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 05:28:24 AM »
If that were the case, I would assume that half-casters like rangers and paladins follow their own set of rules regarding caster level.  However, look at the caster levels at which a ranger gets his spells:

Level 1: CL 2
Level 2: CL 4
Level 3: CL 5
Level 4: CL 7

All of those meet the minimum required caster levels to cast spells off the standard lists.  Since a fourth-level spell requires a CL of 7 to cast, the ranger meets the prerequisites.  However, this is a little wonky because rangers and the like have their own separate spell lists.

Thus, we must go to the rules.
Quote
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

This is terribly written.  "You can only cast a spell if your caster level would let you cast the spell."  By RAW, this doesn't mean anything, given that the rules don't specify what minimum CL you need to cast a spell.  What the rules intend, I suspect, is that your caster level for casting spells must be equal to the caster level you have when you first get the spells.

Think of it this way:

The minimum CL that a ranger can cast third-level spells is CL 5 because that's when he gets them.  Similarly, a sorcerer's minimum CL for fireball is actually CL 6 (unlike the wizard's CL 5) because that's the minimum sorcerer level he needs to cast the spells.

 Thank you, this makes sense. I was assuming in the example of Mialee's fireball that the minimum level was the class level rather than caster level.

 Would it be logical to assume that in the case of PrCs the minimum caster level to receive a spell is the CL of the PrC at that level? So an Ur-Priest can cast level 9 spells at CL 9 while a Wizard would need CL 17?

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 11:39:16 AM »
Basically, the passage is only relevant if you're intentionally lowering your caster level... which is exactly what it says.
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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 01:04:53 PM »
Quote
Thank you, this makes sense. I was assuming in the example of Mialee's fireball that the minimum level was the class level rather than caster level.

 Would it be logical to assume that in the case of PrCs the minimum caster level to receive a spell is the CL of the PrC at that level? So an Ur-Priest can cast level 9 spells at CL 9 while a Wizard would need CL 17?
The ur-priest is a complete nightmare of a class, but I would say that yes, an ur-priest can cast ninth-level spells at CL 9 while the wizard would need CL 17.

The problem, of course, is that the ur-priest's CL is equal to his class level + 1/2 of his caster level in other spellcasting classes.  So, technically, a wizard 10/ur-priest 1 would have a minimum CL of 6 for casting first-level spells.  And what happens if you have something like sorcerer 4/ur-priest 10 and then you advance sorcerer again?

Basically, you would have to work that out with your DM.

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Re: Versatile Spellcaster and the Prepared Caster
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 05:02:02 PM »
1) Does this feat allow spellcasters to cast a spell that is one level higher than should normally be able to. For example, a level 5 Druid sacking two level 3 spells to cast a single Summon Nature's Ally IV? Or a wizard sacking two level 3 spells for polymorph.

Maybe my memory is faulty, but I believe the answer given in the last round of FAQ by the Sage was that this could allow higher level spells if a metamagic version of a known spell were cast.  For example, a 1st level sorcerer could use two 1st level slots to cast an Extended Mage Armor if he had Versatile Spellcaster and Extend Spell.  Whether this grants said sorcerer actual 2nd level casting to qualify for PrCs is another question - I believe that RAI it certainly doesn't, but RAW it falls into nebulous territory.  As a DM, I wouldn't allow my PCs to use it to qualify, however.

While I don't believe this feat should work for prepared casters (see below), were it allowed, I don't think this would work for a druid, as he should only gain access to spells at the levels he can normally cast them at.  For a wizard, however, he can write a spell into his spellbook before being able to cast it, so I'd say hesitantly yes. 

2) Can prepared spellcasters make use of this feat to manage their spells per day to have fewer, more powerful spells?

For what it's worth, I think that the RAI is that Versatile Spellcaster only applies to sorcerer, bard, dread necro, and other spontaneous casters.  Druids with SNA, clerics with Cure X Wounds, and wizards with spontaneous divination or spontaneous summoning are able to spontaneously cast some spells, but they are obviously not spontaneous casters in the same sense as a sorcerer, which is all that a DM should need to point out before making a ruling.  It's similar to qualifying for UM with a single-class wizard using spontaneous divination, and then using UM to advance Nar Demonbinder - it's definitely not RAI, but it might pass RAW, which is enough for some DMs to allow it.

That said, I can see a DM allowing a prepared caster to take this feat, with the understanding that it will only be used with the spontaneous options.  Again, I believe that RAI it still would not qualify for early PrC qualification.