Author Topic: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer  (Read 6719 times)

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Akalsaris

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2009, 08:13:51 AM »
I'd go for dragon wildshape over frozen wildshape - it's more versatile and makes you much more mobile, and if you're more summoning-focused that's what you really want anyhow. 

Again, natural bond isn't really worth the feat compared with your greenbound summons.  I'd much rather be able to get them out faster (Rapd Spell) or improve their Str/Con (Aug Summoning).  If you can take a flaw, take 2 by the way, and use them for Aug Summoning, instead of getting Quicken but waiting until 9th before you can use it.

My own druid, by the way (Not summoning-focused, except for post-battle healing - he's basically a generalist):
Fireblood Dwarf Druid 9
Feats:
1st: Improved Toughness (Lots of fireballs and glass cannons in this game, so even with 20 Con and this feat, the character still dies occasionally)
3rd: Companion Spellbound
6th: Natural Spell
9th: Craft Wondrous Item (The game has TONS of gold (500,000g at 9th level I think), but almost no item shops, so this is me taking one for the team.  Plus, they need some buffing anyhow)
(Planned: Quicken Spell, Frozen Wildshape, Rashemi Elemental Summoning.  I'd go for dragon wildshape, but there are no dragons in the campaign world, so cryohydra it is...)
Favored wildshape form: Cave Triceratops, Ankylosaurus, Fleshraker (He's a dino-themed guy)
AC: Ankylosaurus (I'm avoiding Venomfire for the sake of the campaign)

Eldariel

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2009, 11:28:11 AM »
I don't think core druid was all that broken. Maybe Natural Spell needed a bit of working on, but otherwise there was not much cheese imo. Splatbooks, definitely.

Really? Level 1 Druid outfights a Fighter while also being a caster and having insane Spot/Listen and d8 HD and saves and so on. Level 4 Druid has infinite flight (thanks to Fire Bat mount) and great summoning for combat along with few control spells. Level 6 Druid is already a competent Fighter on his own right in addition to being a caster and a level 8 Druid and his AC both rival the Fighter in combat while being full casters (and having access to spontaneous heals in Unicorn Summons and such).

And on level 9, he can destroy armies with Control Winds (though he really wants Beads of Karma to help out there) and so on. Core Druid is really only not broken compared to core Wizard and mayhap core Cleric (although IMHO the Cleric gets the short stick of the three in Core 'cause his Domain-access is so limited and the Turns are useless and he needs quite a bit of levels to even Zilla it properly; Blasphemy-line is nice with Beads tho).

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2009, 11:53:32 AM »
You can't use a MM Rod of Quicken on a Summon Nature's Ally spell normally. (You can't Quicken SNA.) If you take Rapid Summoning, or something else that cuts the casting time down to a standard action, you can.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2009, 12:09:32 PM »
You can't use a MM Rod of Quicken on a Summon Nature's Ally spell normally. (You can't Quicken SNA.) If you take Rapid Summoning, or something else that cuts the casting time down to a standard action, you can.

While this may be RAI, by RAW you can.

From the SRD:
Quote
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

Being that the casting time is not more, but equal to 1 full round, RAW says I can, as long as I don't cast it spontaneously. :D

Eldariel

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2009, 02:03:49 PM »
You can't use a MM Rod of Quicken on a Summon Nature's Ally spell normally. (You can't Quicken SNA.) If you take Rapid Summoning, or something else that cuts the casting time down to a standard action, you can.

While this may be RAI, by RAW you can.

From the SRD:
Quote
A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

Being that the casting time is not more, but equal to 1 full round, RAW says I can, as long as I don't cast it spontaneously. :D

It's 1 round, not 1 full-round action. 1 round is longer; full-round action is merely your turn while round is the entire round up until your next turn.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2009, 03:07:20 PM »
By your description, full round action and 1 round seem like the same thing. If one round takes the entire round, how then by adding the word full does it somehow take less time?

That's just whacky  :p

Alastar

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2009, 04:40:19 PM »
A full round action is an action that takes both your standard and your move action

A 1 round action is something that you start on your turn, waste your turn doing, and then the spell kicks off at the begining of your next turn.

Read your actions kiddo ;) :P

Also, doesn,t greenbound summoning require augment summoning?

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2009, 05:14:19 PM »
Lol, I went back and read it after my last post. Still seems silly to me, but rules are rules.

Greenbound Summoning requires the ability to cast any summon nature's ally spell.

Alastar

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2009, 05:22:26 PM »
Summoning is dangerous business !!!!!

Oh really... well i'm still happy i took augment summoning on my aasimar planar shepard.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2009, 05:58:07 PM »
my aasimar planar shepard.

Craft packages them in blue boxes.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2009, 12:07:21 PM »
Allright I am a go on flaws, leaving me now with 3 open feats. Rapid spell obviously needs to be one of them, quicken for the other, aberration wild shape for the third?

Alastar

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2009, 12:15:12 PM »
This is gonna sound redundant, but augment summoning would probably be a good choice, if you wanna go all out summon.

And then you summon eagles who have 3 attacks that deal 1d4 +5 at level 1.

GG DM, GG  i got ma eagle in the middle of your goblins!!!!

DerWille

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2009, 12:37:58 PM »
While trying to optimize my poor solo Malconvoker in an undead heavy game I came across Versatile Spellcaster and I wonder if your Druid could make use of it. It's a feat found in Races of the Dragon, here's what it says.

Versatile Spellcaster
You can use two lower-level spell slots to cast a spell one level higher.
Prerequisite: Ability to Spontaneously cast spells
Benefit: You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows

 If I understand this right, you would qualify because Druids can spontaneously cast summon nature's ally. Then you could sacrifice some of your highest level spell slots to cast spells one higher than you should. So for example, a level 5 druid sacrifices two level 3 slots (1 from class and 1 bonus) to cast a single level 4 spell. He could do this because all divine spell casters know all spells possible for their class.

 At worst, you could sacrifice all of your orisons to cast make up for the level 1 spells you would lose. Then sacrifice the level 1s for level 2s and then the level 2s for level 3s. Which means that while you would have fewer spells per day, each spell would be more potent.

 Although I feel like I'm missing something, like there's a catch to it.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2009, 03:16:36 PM »
There is a catch to it. I'm not sure if it was errataed or if it's simply RAI, but I believe you can't cast a spell from a spell level you aren't able to cast from yet. So to sacrifice two 3rd level spell at level 5 would give me a 4th level spell that I couldn't use yet  :)

But it was a good suggestion!

Negative Zero

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2009, 06:29:43 PM »
You combine the spell slots at casting time, but you can't cast anything from that slot because you have to prepare something in them, which takes time. Dread Necromancers, Beguilers, and Warmages, however, don't have that problem.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2009, 09:09:04 PM »
New Build:

Flaw -1 AC: Spell Focus: Conjuration
Flaw -2 Ranged attack rolls: Augment Summoning

Human Feat: Greenbound Summoning (applies Greenbound template to animal companions) PEoF

Level 1: Ashbound Summoning doubles duration and gives +3 luck bonus to atk rolls. ECS

Level 3: Rapid Spell (Allows summoning as standard action)

Level 4: Fleshraker animal companion

Level 6: Natural Spell (allows casting in wildshape form.) PHB

Level 9: Rashemi Elemental Summoning
Also at level 9: Swift Concentration

Level 12: Quicken Spell

Level 15: Dragon Wild Shape (Allows shifting into dragon forms) Draco

Level 18: ?


Allright, on this new build I (reluctantly) dropped Natural Bond. In it's place I took rapid spell. I pushed back Dragon Wild Shape to the next feat level, and took quicken spell at 12. I don't want to drop Rashemi from 9, it's too useful to me. What's the form that I can shapechange into that gives me 2 standard actions? I still have a level 18 feat open with this build, and I'm not sure what I want to take with it. Would aberration wild shape be best to use because I can go Ten-Headed Terror in conjunction with Venomfire? Or is there something else out there that's so awesome I'm somehow missing it?

Zacariah

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2009, 09:37:36 PM »
That spell is game breaking. Almost as game breaking as the spontaneously cast meteor swarm that leaves behind an elemental.

Very interesting threat you go here. I was just wondering how this works?

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2009, 10:01:48 PM »
That spell is game breaking. Almost as game breaking as the spontaneously cast meteor swarm that leaves behind an elemental.

Very interesting threat you go here. I was just wondering how this works?
Summon Nature's ally 9 can summon 1d3 greater storm elementals. When a storm elemental is summoned it deals sonic damage to everything within 60 ft. and electricity damage in a 120 ft. line in a thunder and lightning type effect. Summoning d3 greater storm elementals causes 12d6 sonic damage and 24d6 electricity damage each, for a total of 108d6 (648 max) sonic and electricity damage in a large aoe. Not to mention the fact that after that the elementals are healed by that damage, and after it's resolved, you still have 3 greater storm elementals staring whatever happens to still be alive in the face.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 03:55:49 PM by Gr1lledcheese »

Echoes

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2009, 11:55:11 PM »
That spell is game breaking. Almost as game breaking as the spontaneously cast meteor swarm that leaves behind an elemental.

Very interesting threat you go here. I was just wondering how this works?
Summon Monster 9 can summon 1d3 greater storm elementals. When a storm elemental is summoned it deals sonic damage to everything within 60 ft. and electricity damage in a 120 ft. line in a thunder and lightning type effect. Summoning d3 greater storm elementals causes 12d6 sonic damage and 24d6 electricity damage each, for a total of 108d6 (648 max) sonic and electricity damage in a large aoe. Not to mention the fact that after that the elementals are healed by that damage, and after it's resolved, you still have 3 greater storm elementals staring whatever happens to still be alive in the face.

It's even better when it's 1d3 orglash storm elementals, who can spam cone of cold while they wait for Thunder and Lightning to recharge. And they can do nonlethal sonic damage to a single target each round as a free action.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Duoing a campaign. Druid and Artificer
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2009, 03:04:12 AM »
Allright I got a play session in today with my build all set and here's some things that I noted:

-You guys were right, my animal companion (though he gains a lot of attacks, so he has a good chance to hit on at least one), was not as useful as my greenbound summons. I think this will change a bit later when venomfire starts to take off and he gets some sizable to hit bonuses.

-Adding in Augment Summoning was nice as it pumped up the summon's ability to hit into the stratosphere.

-I need to have a program that takes the inital stats of the creature and auto templates them.

-I can solo creatures of a CR more than double my own (soloed a dire tiger this session at level 4, and some other things that were CR 9 that I can't remember the name of)

-I am an uber fuck, and greenbound summoning is ridiculously powerful

My Arty friend crafted two arbalester's and took the rapid reload feat with flaws, making him a chain gun of crossbow bolts the whole combat. His sustained damage was good (about 18-25 damage a round between the 3 of them), mine was better and when all the pets hit the damage ramped up into the 50's+. Fighting creatures of that CR, with only two of us took us from 4 to an orc shy 6 in only five hours. I love this druid, and would not want to play him in a party with more than one other person. Two would be pushing it, but doable.

When the artificer gets wands and starts using them in combination with quicken spell things are really going to get nasty. I don't mean his damage either (though that will get to be pretty unstoppable). I'm talking about the Cr of things that are going to have to be thrown at us to keep it challenging. In that way, I'm nervous we're going to get to a point where we both get one shotted. Now that he has craft magic arms and armor, the fleshraker is going to get a few things made to help his ability to hit, making venomfire a more viable strategy...which reminds me I have to buy some more green dice for that.

I'm considering dropping the wildshape feats, because whoever said their friend didn't ever feel the need to head into melee, I can see why. The summons are so powerful that I would just pale by comparison. The only strategy at this point that would be worth a damn would be to have the fleshraker and I venomfired while I'm wildshaped into a fleshraker too. But I wouldn't want to put myself in danger while I can just sit back and let them do the work.

Combat with this character is a blast, because it's always life or death. The CR of the creatures is pretty high, but the reward is really high as well. I think I would really be served well by a few items of spell storing minor. Storing my summons would allow me to keep versatility for when the fight is over.

Are there any more worthwhile summoning feats out there I don't have yet?