Author Topic: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed  (Read 194683 times)

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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2009, 06:03:55 PM »
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...

The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2009, 10:54:54 PM »
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2009, 12:34:06 AM »
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:

Fist of the Forest +1
Forest Reeve -1
Holt Warden +1
Mythic Exemplar +0, varies by path
Ordained Champion +1
Paragnostic Apostle +1
Paragnostic Initiate -1
Sanctified One -1, except Kord Blasters
Shadowspy -2
Shadowstriker -1
Squire of Legend +0, varies by path



I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.

deuxhero

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2009, 02:00:33 AM »
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]

Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2009, 12:03:23 PM »
I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.
It's statements like this that make me wonder just how many people actually read the PrC.  Sure, the abilities are nice, but they're countered by some very harsh penalties.  In an arena environment, it's amazing, but in an actual game, I'd rate it at +1 AT MOST,  More likely +0.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2009, 03:05:04 PM »
I would be very tempted to proclaim a fist of the forest as +2. Pretty much any monk based PC will take at least 1 level.
It's statements like this that make me wonder just how many people actually read the PrC.  Sure, the abilities are nice, but they're countered by some very harsh penalties.  In an arena environment, it's amazing, but in an actual game, I'd rate it at +1 AT MOST,  More likely +0.

Do tiers care though? Are the tiers designed for things like that?

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2009, 05:21:46 PM »
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]

Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.

Actually, the system is consistent in this case. She is => She's. He is => He's. Hers for female possessive. His for male possessive. It is => It's. Its for neutral possessive. Apostrophe when you want to contract the noun with "is" and no apostrophe when you want to use the possessive form. So, in this case, "its" was correct.
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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2009, 06:37:23 PM »
[quibble] it's = it is.  you most likely meant "its"[/quibble]

Always was annoyed by that bit, but "more exceptions than uses of the rule" is about standard for english.

Actually, the system is consistent in this case. She is => She's. He is => He's. Hers for female possessive. His for male possessive. It is => It's. Its for neutral possessive. Apostrophe when you want to contract the noun with "is" and no apostrophe when you want to use the possessive form. So, in this case, "its" was correct.

I was referring to how it is separate from possessive for proper nouns.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2009, 03:03:28 AM »
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
Three reasons.


3) Void Suppression.  No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there.  Requires a melee touch attack.  Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.


2) Moment of Clarity.  Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds.  Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.


1)  Sense Void.  Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check.  This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that?  Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state?  Can you move around?  How long does it last?  Does it count as a divination effect?  What can block it?  RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries.  Illusions work, though.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2009, 02:44:30 PM »
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...

The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2009, 03:07:46 PM »
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...

The two being? Dark vision, immunity to fatigue... ok the rest of the terrain mastery are crap. Then the planar mastries, DD/1d4 rounds (nicest thing melee gets in core), Tremor sense, immunitys to a few SoDs (Holy Word and it's kin) and a few items, energy resistance 20? Quite a bit better than Ranger or Fighter for more levels, possibly barbarian as well.

Shape Soulmeld/Open Chakra and Martial Study?

Not core

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2009, 03:35:00 PM »
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
Three reasons.


3) Void Suppression.  No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there.  Requires a melee touch attack.  Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.


2) Moment of Clarity.  Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds.  Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.


1)  Sense Void.  Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check.  This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that?  Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state?  Can you move around?  How long does it last?  Does it count as a divination effect?  What can block it?  RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries.  Illusions work, though.
I didn't see your reply. Honestly I don't care about this PrC, so don't take it personally. I'm just telling you how I see it. Here we go:

3) By that level (7+12=19, 5+12=17 with extreme shenanigans) everyone else has 9th level spells and you don't. If you can succeed in a touch attack, you should already have killed you target, not wasted a standard action to make sure you will kill your target.

2) Didn't that loredrake thread establish that the non-casting epic feats kinda suck? You can't give epic casting to yourself but maybe to an ally. However if your DM actually allows epic casting you are just plain f*cked because either NPCs will use to pwnzor you, or they won't and you win DnD (which you already should in this case because you have 9th level casting.)

1) Its only 7/day at 13th level. It is not continuous or at will. So it can't be used unless you know someone is coming. But oh wait you lost the caster levels so you can't contact other plane to know when to use it. Looks like you will be taking shots in the dark, and probably failing every time. All someone has to do is momentarily plane shift contingency when you use your ability.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 03:37:12 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2009, 10:33:23 PM »
1) Its only 7/day at 13th level. It is not continuous or at will. So it can't be used unless you know someone is coming. But oh wait you lost the caster levels so you can't contact other plane to know when to use it. Looks like you will be taking shots in the dark, and probably failing every time. All someone has to do is momentarily plane shift contingency when you use your ability.
There's no duration listed, and no end condition listed.  RAW being so vague, that would probably default to continuous (you're using it until you aren't using it any more, but honestly it could be almost anything).  And you've got the total wrong idea anyway.  You're thinking about an encounter win button.  If he gets into an encounter, he's a marginally weaker Cleric/Wizard/whatever with a few odd tricks that might be helpful.  I'm talking about a campaign win button.  A generously-interpreted Void Disciple is the unparalleled master of Scry-and-Die.  Unparalleled, because the classic defense against it is to resist the Scrying in the first place, by any of the many methods of defeating divinations... none of which work against the Void Disciple.  And he can start doing it before Scry normally becomes available.  

The Void Disciple may not be as impressive as a pure Wizard in a fight, but he's still mostly a full caster, and the potential power of Sense Void is honestly kind of terrifying.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 10:37:24 PM by sonofzeal »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2009, 12:16:08 AM »
Hmm I don't do scry & die campaigns. So I don't know about that. Perhaps I am right on the other 2 points, but about the duration: why give more uses each per 2 class levels if it works continuously?
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
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Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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juton

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2009, 12:50:52 AM »
I've used Scry-and-Die once and only once. It was late and we wanted to finish the campaign before dawn. In every other situation I have a lot of trouble seeing a DM letting Scry-and-Die go off, regardless of RAW, at least for the campaign boss. Now I haven't played with every DM ever, so my evidence is anecdotal only but a tactic that gets banned (or books thrown at you) isn't a good tactic.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2009, 01:47:49 AM »
Hmm I don't do scry & die campaigns. So I don't know about that. Perhaps I am right on the other 2 points, but about the duration: why give more uses each per 2 class levels if it works continuously?
The problem is how poorly-worded the whole thing is.  The intent is an alternate Scry mechanic.  You're supposed to do it, watch for a bit, then come back to your body.  That's why there's additional uses per day.  However, Scry spells out that you can only keep watching for 1 min/level, and doesn't have that annoying flavour text about actually going there, which causes all sorts of problems.  Since you're suppose to go, see, and come back, it obviously lasts some period of time (an "instantaneous" peek would be rather odd).  Since it doesn't say when it ends, apparently it doesn't unless you choose it to.  You have mobility issues in that state, so a strict reading might make it so you can go and see as long as you like but can't move around without going back to your body and using it again... but a method of moving as a mental action could get around this.

The other thing is that it's a fundamentally more dangerous version, because distance is much more powerful than familiarity, especially with skillcheck DCs that scale so slowly.  A Scryer must choose a creature, who gets a Will save, potentially with a pretty hefty Will save bonus.  You also need some sort of connection to the creature, which is a substantial limit on the spell as well.  You also can't scry anywhere that doesn't currently have people.

Sense Void on the other hand lets you go anywhere, regardless of a connection, will save, or abjurations.  That's huge.  You can go places you've never been, never even heard of, and now you know them for the purposes of scrying or teleporting.  You can tell what's behind a locked door or in an enemy war-room far more reliably than by scrying.

I've used Scry-and-Die once and only once. It was late and we wanted to finish the campaign before dawn. In every other situation I have a lot of trouble seeing a DM letting Scry-and-Die go off, regardless of RAW, at least for the campaign boss. Now I haven't played with every DM ever, so my evidence is anecdotal only but a tactic that gets banned (or books thrown at you) isn't a good tactic.
The only campaign I've been in where one was used, the PCs had to raid this Dwarven fortress.  There was only one enterance with ridiculous defenses, and the PCs had a hard time of it for a while.  Then the Void Disciple SenseVoid'd into the centre of the facility, used his newfound familiarity to teleport them all right into the command room, and what was supposed to be a marathon session was over with trivial ease.  Part of that was the DM's fault (he didn't expect them to have any way to teleport in), but it goes to show that, yes, it really does happen in actual games.



Anyway, this whole thing is predicated on my own rather fuzzy understanding of what the ability does.  If someone can give a clearer RAW picture of how it's not actually broken, that doesn't involve houserules (logical though they may be), I'd love it.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2009, 04:45:45 AM »
The lack of extraplanar sight is pretty hindering, though.
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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2009, 06:28:22 PM »
Where does Survivor (commoner entry) rank? It's at least 1 up (hard to get worse) for the levels it effects (it's able to do one thing, not sure on how well).

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #98 on: December 23, 2009, 02:18:39 AM »
The lack of extraplanar sight is pretty hindering, though.
You're still a spellcaster who can probably still cast Scry if you need too.  I don't think planar boundaries are a big deal in 95% of the games I've played, and it's usually possible to travel to the plane in question and then use it.  It's not as useful for TO epic play, what with Genesis shenanigans, but I'm not going to hold that against the class.

Where does Survivor (commoner entry) rank? It's at least 1 up (hard to get worse) for the levels it effects (it's able to do one thing, not sure on how well).
It doesn't even do that well.  With d6 HD, no AC bonus, and no armour proficiency?  Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to live long in most games.  Down 1, possibly Down 2.  It's only superior to Commoner levels in that everything is superior to commoner levels, and even there it loses on BAB.

deuxhero

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #99 on: December 24, 2009, 12:16:01 AM »
so +1 or +0 for commoner and -2 for everyone else?