Author Topic: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed  (Read 194682 times)

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InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #60 on: October 03, 2009, 03:14:35 PM »
I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #61 on: October 03, 2009, 05:14:01 PM »
I'll get to this tomorrow morning/midday. Just have to not forget it.

Suzerain

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2009, 07:19:30 AM »
I was wondering if paragon classes are represented here?

I think they should be. We should treat them as 3-level PrCs and list them under UA.

Quote
Also I thought I'd say that the Legacy Champion PrC is a +0. Its a strange, almost doubly class. You get average hit dice and low skills with only good will saves and cleric BaB. That all seems usual. There is not any set entry class (it has the extremely high prereq of being TENTH level to start). I was thinking a bard. It looses two caster levels but gives 2 feats and some very specific abilities. There now I contributed a whole book :)

If I didn't know so few things about legacy items, I probably would've done that, too. I know I read a thread once where someone did a gnome that focused on his legacy item and it was somehow proven to be a very good trade. Whether it's sensible for a fullcaster to enter legacy champion, I'm not sure. I think if we make a ranking for legacy champion, we need to compare it to en equivalent character that's just done the legacy rituals normally. So the ideal character for legacy champion would use times/day abilities which he would get an extra use out of from legacy champion. Also something that could use those extra legacy feats.

We could also say it's unique in that besides bloodlines, it is the only way to extend certain class features beyond their cap (and in the case of hellfire warlock or war weaver or abjurant champion, I would say that totally works and makes sense since you're a "legacy champion", a legendary character, after all). Of course that depends on the DM, but I think it needs to be captured in a ranking somehow. Just polling for ideas here. We could have 2 rankings, or just one.

So, basically, I'd probably agree with +0 for partial spellcasters, but that's more of an evaluation in a vacuum. Opinions please.

I'm seconding PlzBreakMyCampaign's confusion about Void Disciple being up 2 tiers, while eating 5 caster levels....

I'm inclined to agree. For the main rating, 7 levels of Void Disciple must be taken (54%). The only interesting abilities are the senses thing, which is the only way apart from being a deity to extend your senses that far; everything that blocks regular senses should work against it though. The other interesting thing is the feat thing, which you can use 2/day by level 4. You can (probably) give yourself an epic feat which you won't have to qualify for, but only for a minute or so. I can see this as being useful in some circumstances, but you really should just let your cohort take a 4-level dip in this prc and take a real prc instead. Maybe I'll open a challenge thread where we come up with PC builds using a good amount of void disciple. If we can't come up with anything genuinely useful, I'd think the class floats around a low -1 actually.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 07:21:32 AM by Suzerain »

snakeman830

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2009, 04:41:21 PM »
Pyrokinetecist is from Expanded Psionics Handbook, not Sandstorm.  It's also got much easier entry and better features than the Cryokinetecist at the cost of dealing fire damage instead of cold (but both are frequently resisted and/or immune).
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2009, 04:59:14 PM »
Legacy Champion is too dependent upon both the class it advances, and what classes it can advance.  It is used in my "Ultimate Mage" to get extra spells and spell levels into the Eldritch Tapestry of War Weaver, and most definitely adds a lot of flexibility (read : the rest of my freaking spell list) to an already Tier 1 character with two +2 Tier PrC's.  In this case, I'd call it +2 Tier.  If it weren't doing something like that for a class, but still helping (say on a Warlock that's also adding a ton more versatility than they have inherently, along with special abilities not normally accessible), I'd say it's +1.  For someone like a Favored Soul, while it slows spell progression a bit, it adds different, though not necessarily weaker or stronger, powers, and is in general a lateral move for more options vs. raw power.  For a Cleric (or Druid, or most of either, anyhow), it's actually delaying and gimping the class, as it has worse saves, worse casting, the same BAB, and no real abilities the Cleric doesn't have access to already.  And for a Wizard without a GOOD reason to take it, it's the cardinal sin, at -2.  Also, if the DM gimps it outright, it's hardly worth a rating.
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Suzerain

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2009, 05:53:36 PM »
Pyrokinetecist is from Expanded Psionics Handbook, not Sandstorm.  It's also got much easier entry and better features than the Cryokinetecist at the cost of dealing fire damage instead of cold (but both are frequently resisted and/or immune).

Thanky you. I fixed the book thing, but I can't comment on the class, AFB right now. It's possible that one of them is low in -1 and the other high, though.

Legacy Champion is too dependent upon both the class it advances, and what classes it can advance.  It is used in my "Ultimate Mage" to get extra spells and spell levels into the Eldritch Tapestry of War Weaver, and most definitely adds a lot of flexibility (read : the rest of my freaking spell list) to an already Tier 1 character with two +2 Tier PrC's.  In this case, I'd call it +2 Tier.  If it weren't doing something like that for a class, but still helping (say on a Warlock that's also adding a ton more versatility than they have inherently, along with special abilities not normally accessible), I'd say it's +1.  For someone like a Favored Soul, while it slows spell progression a bit, it adds different, though not necessarily weaker or stronger, powers, and is in general a lateral move for more options vs. raw power.  For a Cleric (or Druid, or most of either, anyhow), it's actually delaying and gimping the class, as it has worse saves, worse casting, the same BAB, and no real abilities the Cleric doesn't have access to already.  And for a Wizard without a GOOD reason to take it, it's the cardinal sin, at -2.  Also, if the DM gimps it outright, it's hardly worth a rating.

We choose tiers by best entry (discounting prcs as entries, usually, but I'm lenient). Looks like we need 2 rankings then. One for prc advancing (because that's the the application of the legacy champion) and one for the best possible entry without advancing prcs with it. We need to compare it to a character with a legacy item though, because everyone can have them, and needn't even pay feats for them (you just do the rituals and get the feats). So is there a reason why you would want to take legacy champion as a legacy item user? As a spellcaster, you have much to lose and few things to gain. You have more uses of some abilities, and 2 legacy feats, that's it.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2009, 12:24:46 PM »
Hehe. I know a lot about legacy weapons. I am not sure if I am in favor of splitting the rating into two, though it would make sense. I would like to submit that if we break it up it should be on the basis of 2 things. The first would be that this is obviously used for advancing finished classes. This is why I mentioned the class as sort of a strange doubly. The second thing however should be if the class necessarily allows you to progress a class to its next (epic) level of a Prestige. Thats where it gets real nasty even if you don't allow any epic feats or abilities.

Keep in mind that just like bloodlines most people use custom legacy weapons. The stated legacy items generally suck and have suboptimal costs. The Legacy Champion class is the easiest way to avoid that misery if your DM was mean and allowed legacy weapons but not custom ones.
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kobo1d

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2009, 07:00:14 PM »
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:

Fist of the Forest +1
Forest Reeve -1
Holt Warden +1
Mythic Exemplar +0, varies by path
Ordained Champion +1
Paragnostic Apostle +1
Paragnostic Initiate -1
Sanctified One -1, except Kord Blasters
Shadowspy -2
Shadowstriker -1
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Suzerain

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #68 on: November 12, 2009, 05:48:08 PM »
It's not principally discountinued, I just don't have much time in recent days. If someone would stirr up discussion, I'd appreciate it :) I'd still have time to update the files if everyone were to agree on ratings.

My review of the two reviewed Eberron books is actually still pending. I just never found the time or motivation to post it.

Let's see what I can do during christmas holidays.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2009, 05:11:48 AM »
Is this discontinued? What about Complete Champion? My thoughts:

Ordained Champion +1

I would tend to disagree about +1, although it can make a NON-DMM cleric a good deal more melee suitable. I would leave it at +0, and +1 if DMM is either disallowed or made impractical.

Samb

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2009, 01:01:26 PM »
All this talk about legacy champ made me think of uncanny trickster. It gives you a bunch of skill ranks, more free skill tricks, more uses of your favored tricks and advances "class features" in 2/3 levels. It is only 3 levels but it seems to offer a lot more than legacy champ and allows you advance PrC.  Wonder if that would change it's ranking, currently it's +1 but at only 3 levels it's hard to say it would make big difference. 

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2009, 05:08:30 AM »
All this talk about legacy champ made me think of uncanny trickster. It gives you a bunch of skill ranks, more free skill tricks, more uses of your favored tricks and advances "class features" in 2/3 levels. It is only 3 levels but it seems to offer a lot more than legacy champ and allows you advance PrC.  Wonder if that would change it's ranking, currently it's +1 but at only 3 levels it's hard to say it would make big difference. 
The reason Legacy Champ would be good is the +1class abuse. Though this class can do that, it doesn't do it as well. So I see them at the same ranking (since the other stuff might balance them to equality)
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Samb

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2009, 04:54:20 PM »
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign link=topic=5198.msg210097#msg210097 date=
The reason Legacy Champ would be good is the +1class abuse. Though this class can do that, it doesn't do it as well. So I see them at the same ranking (since the other stuff might balance them to equality)
I have no idea what "does it better" mean when you say it. Either it advances class features or it doesn't I don't see much difference. Uncanny trickster is harder to qualifiy for and only advances 2/3 if that is what you mean.    
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 06:31:47 PM by Samb »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2009, 05:06:24 PM »
Your ratio for legacy champion is better.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2009, 06:38:44 PM »
Oddly enough I was just looking at the legacy champion when I read your post, PlzBreakMyCampaign :P 

I'd agree with the assessment that it's +0.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2009, 07:31:40 PM »
The Shadowmagic PrCs Shadowblade and Shadowsmith are in +0. Imo the Shadowblade is horrible, a -2 for sure. It had semi-useful abilities it can't use that many times per day. One of its abilities is crappy low-light.

The Shadowsmith is probably a -1 by itself, but it's not bad for a short dip if you later go into something that enhances weapons/armor.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #76 on: December 16, 2009, 01:09:01 AM »
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #77 on: December 16, 2009, 02:43:13 PM »
Not to be a necro, but I feel Horizon walker should be at least +0, if only in a core only setting. Some of the abilities are a good trade compared to much of what you would get from another standard level of Ranger, Barbarian or Fighter.

Two of the major abilities can be duplicated by feats...


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Empirate

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2009, 08:04:12 PM »
Your Cityscape writeup seems to be missing a couple of PrCs.

Ebonmar Infiltrator: +0

Reasoning based on a Rogue 5 entry (other possible entries would be anything that can manage the steep skill reqs and has two feats to burn):

Pro: Continues your role as a skillmonkey and most other roguey stuff, including Sneak Attack (+3d6 over eight levels, sadly no progression for levels 9 and 10). Provides small bonuses to focus you on your infiltrator role, including welcome bonuses to Initiative and AC. Hide in Plain Sight (Ranger variant). Blindsense (5' only, though). The real seller is that you get your own - narrowly focused but useful - spell list.

Con: Takes two very very crappy feats to qualify for, in an already (very likely) feat-strapped build. Only 6+Int skillpoints/lvl, no Use Magic Device. Assassin has a strictly better spell list, if only because it is supported in many 3.5 books. No real signature ability (you can read War&Peace in a little over an hour though  :twitch).

General note: The Ebonmar Infiltrator does what a PrC is supposed to do: sharpen (and narrow) the focus of what your character can do. Excellent design in this regard. Sadly, it's a bit lacking in giving you additional Oomph! in your chosen area of expertise.


Crimson Scourge: +1

Reasoning based on an entry combining some martial classes (Urban Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Hexblade...):

Pro: Full BAB, 2 good saves (Fort and Ref), 6+Int skillpoints (good list), d10 HP, easy requirements except for 8 rks in Handle Animal (wtf?!). The first few levels are nothing special otherwise: Kid Gloves (deal nonlethal damage or lethal damage without penalty), Swift Tracker (applies only to Urban Tracking), Painful Strike (highly circumstantial, unimpressive damage bonus), Immovable Heart (small bonus vs. Enchantment and Fear) - all a bit lackluster. At 5th level, you get Improved Disarm, but if you want to disarm people, you should take that feat a little earlier, I'd say. But hey, it's a free feat.
Only at 7th level (Threaten ability) does the Crimson Scourge get something really worthwhile: Not only do you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks to demoralize an opponent (kthx), you can also do so as a move action (yay!), and the opponent stays demoralized for 1 round per point of your Str bonus (YAY!). Now this leads to some nice and easy fear stacking, and with the right build, you can do that all by yourself. This awesome ability is worth 7 levels of a PrC with lackluster abilities, but resting on a strong chassis.
Immunity to pain and nonlethal damage (gained at 8th) and Smell of Blood (Scent ability and +3 Initiative, gained at 10th) round the PrC off nicely.

Con: The class is built on a Ranger chassis, but does not get Ranger goodies, most of all no spellcasting, but also no Fighting Style, no Favored Enemy etc. All these are replaced by merely OK abilities, of which only one really shines. Even the Threaten ability needs a certain amount of optimization to function properly. Some class abilities are so situational as not to warrant the ink they're printed with. Build might be feat strapped (lack of Bonus feats except for surprising and largely useless Improved Disarm).

General note: The Crimson Scourge is very good at what it does (bringing small-time criminals and offenders back alive). Unfortunately, this is usually not needed in an adventuring party. However, the Threaten ability is quite glorious in its own right, and works well with many many things. Do not enter from Ranger 5, or you'll be disappointed. Optimize it, and it will become better than your fundament.

Empirate

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2009, 08:11:11 PM »
Also, need to comment on your rating of the Red Wizard. The PrC is clearly a +2, being easily as abusable as an Incantatrix. Circle magic! Have you ever read what that can do? Amazing stuff, to say the least.

Oh, and btw: Great work accumulating this resource! I mean in no way to criticize, just laying my finger on a disputable point there. Keep it up!