Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed

[Suzerain]

Neraphim are natives to Limbo and don't get the [chaotic] subtype.

[Tshern]

edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.

Half-fey template too.

[Suzerain]

edit: Touch of Captivation gives charm person, and should be aquirable if you're already an outsider with the evil subtype.

Half-fey template too.

Nice one - but it has LA+2..

[Tshern]

Sure does. Too bad Otherworldly in conjunction with Dragonwrought and Draconic reservoir doesn't work...

[Suzerain]

Sure does. Too bad Otherworldly in conjunction with Dragonwrought and Draconic reservoir doesn't work...

should work.

edit: Crap, Ruathar doesn't make you an elf, unfortunately... I thought it worked like stoneblessed :-/

[Nuntius Mortis]

Neraphim are natives to Limbo and don't get the [chaotic] subtype.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense for Neraphim fluffwise. After all, they're the hunters of the Chaos Beast

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.

[Nuntius Mortis]

Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.

+1

Although, I think that the Savage Progressions prevent you from multiclassing unless you've taken all the levels in the progression. There's a rule about that in pg. 27 under the "Monster Classes and Multiclassing" section.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, in that case, you have to resort to savage species.

+1

Although, I think that the Savage Progressions prevent you from multiclassing unless you've taken all the levels in the progression. There's a rule about that in pg. 27 under the "Monster Classes and Multiclassing" section.

I mean one of the rituals.

[Epinephrine]

I'd like to suggest that the Beastmaster PrC be reduced to a -2 tier PrC.  

Reasons:
You give up 10 levels of full casting
You give up 10 levels of wild shape progression

In return, you get a +3 to the level of your main animal companion, full BAB, and d10 HD.
The other abilities are pretty useless; the extra animal companions that are gained are based off your class level, not your druid level - so they are of virtually no use at all.  Do you beome a lord of beasts, with companions at your beck and call?  Not so much.

A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),

yeah, those companions suck.  They are so low level that they are one-shotted by anything you face.  The class fails to provide what it is meant to provide.  The only time the class can be good is as a 1 level dip to boost the power of your animal companion by 3 effective druid levels, and even then you are trading away your spell advancement and a level of wildshape advancement for a marginally tougher AC.

[bearsarebrown]

A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),

I always assumed that the extra companion were at a -3/-6/-9 to your AC level, but you're right, it's the the Beastmaster level only. And the errata says that Natural Bond will only work on one of them!

That's horrible!

[Havok4]

It is fairly good if your are a non-druid however, it is one of the sources of the supermount build's power.

[KellKheraptis]

I would put both the Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge at +1, given that they both are full progression, add unique and in both cases have powerful abilities (RTA to negate the save to a save or suck, w00t!) that improve upon or increase the versatility of the base classes.  While less so for the ED on the Cleric side, they add a LOT to a Warlock, so I guess you have to look at them from a Warlock PoV, as there isn't a whole lot more you can get out of a Cleric or Wizard

Also, it should be noted that ED is a LOT more powerful and IMO optimal when joined to an Ur-Priest, but that may be because Ur's are Ungodly (literally) already.

[woodenbandman]

I contest the status of Fochlucan Lyrist as a -2/+1 (or was it -1/up2?)class depending on method of obtaining evasion. It's hardly +1 considering Druid is pretty much required and Druid is a tier class if I've ever seen one. It definitely doesn't bring a bard based character up to the level of a druid. Taking a 2 level detour into Rogue is hardly anything for a character who wants the best of druid utility/stealth casting and bardic party buffage. yeah, it'd be better without that 2 level detour, but you're losing Inspire Courage +4 and mass suggestion already anyway, it hardly matters that you lose whatever else you lose. It's not like inspire courage optimization requires that many actual bard levels anyway.

I suggest it be a +0 class, because it fulfills a different role than a druid or a bard, and it's sort of akin to a beguiler. It focuses on battlefield control and a bit of buffing rather than the raw melee damage of a rogue or druid, and it's got a definite stealth/skill focus. It'll fit naturally into a normal party, because it doesn't lose any ground in covering its designated role, which is skillmonkeying with some light spellcasting. It also happens to grant full BAB and dual full casting, so I can see where the idea that it's a very high tier increase comes from, but it doesn't actually compare to an actual druid which is the class that is half the concept.

So overall, it's a +1 if you consider the character a bard, a -1 if you consider the character a druid, and probably awesome either way.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...

[sonofzeal]

I'd like to suggest that the Beastmaster PrC be reduced to a -2 tier PrC. 

Reasons:
You give up 10 levels of full casting
You give up 10 levels of wild shape progression

In return, you get a +3 to the level of your main animal companion, full BAB, and d10 HD.
The other abilities are pretty useless; the extra animal companions that are gained are based off your class level, not your druid level - so they are of virtually no use at all.  Do you beome a lord of beasts, with companions at your beck and call?  Not so much.

A Druid 10/Beastmaster 10 has casting as a 10th level druid, and has 4 animal companions equivalent to:
a level 23 druid's companion (yay!),
a level 7 druid's companion (Umm, hello?),
a level 4 druid's companion (what!?),
a level 1 druid's companion (wtf?),

yeah, those companions suck.  They are so low level that they are one-shotted by anything you face.  The class fails to provide what it is meant to provide.  The only time the class can be good is as a 1 level dip to boost the power of your animal companion by 3 effective druid levels, and even then you are trading away your spell advancement and a level of wildshape advancement for a marginally tougher AC.

It's obviously not a Druid class though.  Consider both the book it's from, and the sample NPC, imply a Ranger focus.  It also gets the same HD, BAB, saves, and skillpoints as a Ranger.  None of that (except the skillpoints) lines up with Druids.

What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...

Gwynharwyf - on the low end of its tier.  It's mostly there because omfg this class gives way too many advantages over straight Barbarians.  Innate spellcasting is always a substantial power boost, Divine Grace is huge, immunity to charms and compulsions is something every character needs eventually (and most can only beg it from the Wizard), and just as a bonus you get smite and a combination of resistance 10 to three elements and DR that scales twice as fast as the base class.  What do you give up in return?  Uhhh.... one feat that's great for CG Barbarians anyway (as it allows them to take, oh, say Frenzied Berserker), and admittedly one dummy feat.  Oh, and trap sense, you don't get trap sense any more.  Shock, horror.

Void Disciple - I was the one who rated this originally, and I asked multiple times for second opinions.  It loses a whole bunch of caster levels, and if you're looking just at that then yeah, "thou shalt not give up caster levels" and whatnot.  Here's the thing though, look what it does get.  Sense Void isn't explicitly based off of "scry" (the word never comes up) so it provides for no duration limit, no method of warding, no method of detection.  Moment of Clarity can give anyone any feat in the game temporarily, whether or not they qualify for it, even epic feats.  Void Suppression is basically an instant no-save Save-or-Lose (so, basically just a "lose") against anything that has even a single dump stat which is darn near everything.  That said, hey, you give up a lot of caster levels.  So... yeah, I still think the class is completely ridiculous either way.

[bearsarebrown]

What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...

Remember that the tiers aren't based on how strong the prestige class it, but how much STRONGER it makes the base class. Gwynharwyf is a good prestige class, as you admit, but don't look at it like that, look at what it gives to a Barbarian. It VASTLY improved the barbarian in almost every way. Your saves get way better, you effectly don't need to make Will saves anymore, you can cast spells!

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Hehe I know bears (i r !n00b) but the 'low tier 2' is an acceptable answer. The spells aren't are few and low level, its the same saves set, Immune to mind-effects isn't hard to get, etc. But okay Its a good prc for a barb. (I forgot the frenzied berserker common feat)

SonOf i love your insight on the void disciple. Lets look at this. The sense your surrounds stuff is only 1/day -> 7/day. So its not mindsight on crack (but the non-detection is cool). Since the skill bonuses are so temporary this ability, while flavorful is very situational and limited. The same goes for feats. I repeat the limitation means no breaking open prereq's or anything like that. I don't usually think about epic feats but... Most epic feats aren't that great if you lack the ability to use epic casting. The only useful thing I can find is an easier way to do things like gargantuan, colossal, outsider, etc wild shaping for 1 use.

I don't know if the math works out well enough for void suppression. Not everything has a massive negative mod dump stat. And even if it does it better have good base saves... Also the capstone ability is crap. I'd consider this PrC a +1 for a 1 level dip (the senses thing is cool). It just isn't worth 9th and 8th level spells...

[Nuntius Mortis]

What am I missing about Gwynharwyf and void discple? Why are they up 2 tiers? I could see the former as high +1 and the latter as -1 (maybe even +0 but it loses FIVE caster levels). I must have missed something...

Gwynharwyf - on the low end of its tier.  It's mostly there because omfg this class gives way too many advantages over straight Barbarians.  Innate spellcasting is always a substantial power boost, Divine Grace is huge, immunity to charms and compulsions is something every character needs eventually (and most can only beg it from the Wizard), and just as a bonus you get smite and a combination of resistance 10 to three elements and DR that scales twice as fast as the base class.  What do you give up in return?  Uhhh.... one feat that's great for CG Barbarians anyway (as it allows them to take, oh, say Frenzied Berserker), and admittedly one dummy feat.  Oh, and trap sense, you don't get trap sense any more.  Shock, horror.

Champion of Gwynharwyf is admiteddly a lot better than a straight Barbarian but it has serious MAD problems. You need Wis for spells and Cha for Divine Grace and as a Barbarian you already need good Str, Dex and Con. Other than that, I agree that it is at least a +1 PrC.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I love this thread and use it for my recent thread.

I was wondering if paragon classes are represented here?

Also I thought I'd say that the Legacy Champion PrC is a +0. Its a strange, almost doubly class. You get average hit dice and low skills with only good will saves and cleric BaB. That all seems usual. There is not any set entry class (it has the extremely high prereq of being TENTH level to start). I was thinking a bard. It looses two caster levels but gives 2 feats and some very specific abilities. There now I contributed a whole book