Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed

[snakeman830]

And you're not reading what we're saying.

Wrong. My posts have acknowledged yours. They simply disagreed. Do not confuse the two.

The compelling reason is the seperate flurry progression. And the fact that actually tankish classes use that con->AC much better. If thats not cool enough it just means I get to show DMs, who don't believe my AC, that its only a +0 PrC.

PBMC out

You keep citing this flurry progression.  The PrC doesn't have one.  At all.  Where are you getting this idea from?  If it's from the Feral Trance, then I'm sorry, but that's not Flurry, especially since the extra attack can only be gotten during those trances which can be used a maximum of 2/day

[HCL]

How about the Skypledged? For a Druid entry I think its only a +0 since it gives cleric spell access, full casting, and some class features, but it does not continue animal companion and wildshape progression.

For a Cleric it is at least a +1, you get access to druid spells, can cast spells semi spontaneously, and you get some nice class features. All you lose compared to taking Cloistered Cleric levels is 2 skill points per level and turn undead progression (hehe). There is also a restrictive code, but you don't really lose that much other than non-air elemental summoning and Wall of Stone.

[wackodraco]

How about the Skypledged? For a Druid entry I think its only a +0 since it gives cleric spell access, full casting, and some class features, but it does not continue animal companion and wildshape progression.

For a Cleric it is at least a +1, you get access to druid spells, can cast spells semi spontaneously, and you get some nice class features. All you lose compared to taking Cloistered Cleric levels is 2 skill points per level and turn undead progression (hehe). There is also a restrictive code, but you don't really lose that much other than non-air elemental summoning and Wall of Stone.

It's comprable to Mage of the Arcane Order for the Divine Spellpool alone, it may even significantly improve the class (breaks prepared casting for you, full casting).
The question, as I see it, comes down how restrictive the Vow to abstain from Fire, Earth, or Water spells is.
I bet such could be cheesed with Energy Sub. or some similar.

[Malsheem]

Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...

[bearsarebrown]

Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...

Dire Bear form 24/7 is pretty sweet. But I agree it's only a strong +1.

[Negative Zero]

Can someone explane me why Emissaries of Barachiel is a +2? I really dont get it, i'm reading the class over and over and can't find a reason...

Dire Bear form 24/7 is pretty sweet. But I agree it's only a strong +1.

Dire Bear form is from the Sentinel of Bharrai, not Emissary of Barachiel.

[bearsarebrown]

Oh I got my BoED classes mixed up.

I can answer the question then:

Permanent alignment shifting powers with a DC set my a Diplomacy check.  It's like a Diplomancer with an even stronger weapon.

[sonofzeal]

Oh I got my BoED classes mixed up.

I can answer the question then:

Permanent alignment shifting powers with a DC set my a Diplomacy check.  It's like a Diplomancer with an even stronger weapon.

Nailed it in one.  Well, two, sorta.

Yeah, I was the one that tossed out that rating in the first place, and it was mostly in the "omgwtfbbq"ness of having DC set by Diplomacy, possibly the #2 most easily pumpable skill (short only of jumplomancy).  And "Conversion" is a campaign-ender.  By JaronK's system, they occupy an odd space; they're weak in a lot of ways and can be a total dead weight in need of serious DM handholding, but they can also go totally off the rails with terrifying ease.  Never, ever let an Emissary have a large audience.  Given a soapbox and a month game-time, he can turn an entire city Lawful Stupid.

Even without that, "Calling" is pretty much an auto-stun against all non-undead evil creatures in a 30' radius.  Technically it has a save, but any half-decent effort is getting you a DC of 30+1d20, even at low levels.

Mostly it's about the "Conversion" though.  Srs hax.

[Malsheem]

Oh now i understand...

[Junkyarddog]

Can somebody explain why arcane archer is -2.  It seems to me that while its not great, it doesn't deserve that much hate.

[snakeman830]

Can somebody explain why arcane archer is -2.  It seems to me that while its not great, it doesn't deserve that much hate.

It takes a lot of junk feats to enter, requires, but doesn't advance casting, the only scaling class feature is replicated by a spell completely, and the other abilities (save Imbue Arrow) are all 1/day.  Arrow of Death is a Fort save with a low save DC, so it will almost assuredly be resisted.

[KellKheraptis]

3.5 Arcane Archer is 2 levels long for just about every build, other than carnivore's or DM's duskblade.  Pinpoint long range AMF is just sexy

[Junkyarddog]

Right, i forgot that splashes don't count.  As for requiring caster, 1 lvl of duskblade doesn't really hurt you that much.

[deuxhero]

Loremaster is +1 for

"insanely easy to enter (1 blown feat you get back+feats you would take anyways, 2 you get as bonus feats), full spellcasting progression, extra skills and skill points including UMD as a class skill, you can ID for free as a standard action (while plentiful in splat, this on is core) and the capstone mirrors a spell, while killing the two factors (cost and time) and make the spell bad. Plus RAW you can learn secret languages without meeting the requirements (Every other source of learning a language makes a specific point you can't learn druidic, the bonus language feature lacks it) "

Right? Did I miss anything

[Hijax]

possible error:
ultimate magus is +0 "w/o early entry"
but it is nowhere stated what it is with early entry.

[Hallack]

Are we avoiding Web Enhancements?  Curious as I noticed Swiftblade is not on the list.  If qualifies for the list I would probably rate it at a +1. 

[Havok4]

Which makes it pretty unique for a class that loses 4 caster levels.

[tinydwarfman]

How do rate the PrC's from Fiendish Codex II? Hellfire Warlock is probably a strong +1 in my opinion, but what about hellreaver?

[Havok4]

but what about hellreaver?

+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.

[tinydwarfman]

but what about hellreaver?

+0 probably as you get a few nice things that are very situational with rather meh prerequisites. Assuming of course you enter as a non spellcasting sneaky type like a rogue.

What about entering via Crusader or the like? Why would you enter via rogue?

EDIT: I think you mean Hellbreaker, the one which piggybacks on teleport spells and steals SLAs. Hellreaver is kind of like a paladin that hates demons/devils and has no casting.