Author Topic: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed  (Read 194829 times)

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sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #100 on: December 24, 2009, 01:57:50 AM »
so +1 or +0 for commoner and -2 for everyone else?
Possibly +1 for Commoner, but really the class seems intended for level 5 pure-classed characters of any class, who want a little extra something.  Literally any level 5 character who hasn't multiclassed can access it, from Rogues to Barbarians to Truenamers to Samurai to Wizards.  This makes it exceedingly hard to quantify the benefits.  Hmmm....

Uncanny Dodge is nice for high-dex characters who don't already get it, and who rely on AC to protect against melee attacks.

Evasion is nice for high-dex characters who don't already get it, period.

DR 5/- is nice for anyone who expects to take a goodly number of hits in melee.  (DR is generally overrated, but in a normal game at level 10 you're fighting beside the ubercharger, against things that generally have multiple weaker attacks on the order of 15-20 damage each, and DR 5/- is nice.)

All good saves is nice for everybody, period.

0 BAB is terrible for anything that relies on melee combat itself.

d6 HD is a significant vulnerability for anything that expect to make use of that DR 5/-.

2+int skill points is painful for skillmonkeys.




Analysis: it holds you back no matter what you're trying to do.  Most of the features are only a help for high-dex front line characters, but there aren't a whole lot of those who can afford the precipitous drop in BAB and hp.  High saves and Evasion make a 2 level dip reasonable for some characters who are having trouble with enemy mages, and the hp issue can be overcome by being undead, but that's going beyond the bounds of the rating system.  Factotums probably gain the most but also lose a lot; Dragonfire Adepts probably lose the least and do still get a lot out of it.  I wouldn't rate this highly for Commoners though, as just about anything else they could take would probably be better for them anyway. 

In general, being slightly harder to kill is not a good goal for this many levels spent.  D&D favours offence and aggression, and this class provides absolutely nothing in that direction, less than Truenamer.  The only real difference between a Commoner6 and a Commoner1/Survivor5 is that the latter takes slightly more effort to kill.  That's not really worthy of a +1, outside of isolated builds.  And the class doesn't appear to be aimed at Commoners anyway, it just happened to fall that way.  I wouldn't consider Commoner the logical entry, just a funny little quirk.


Result: I'd be tempted to drop the class in the "down two" wall of shame, possible with a note mentioning how easily Commoners get in.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2009, 03:23:05 AM »
It's better in gestalt, but not by that much.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #102 on: December 24, 2009, 04:27:40 AM »
It's better in gestalt, but not by that much.
A good point.  Given the ease of entry, it could be a useful stepping stone in gestalt.  The HD and BAB don't really matter any more if paired with something decent, and the individual abilities offered are potentially worth the level.  Evasion in particular is a nice one to pick up if you can.  Ref Half is generally a weak thing for players to use, but a classic for monsters.  I'd definitely consider it for any high-Dex gestalt character, if I didn't have anything to do on the passive side at the time.

Empirate

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #103 on: December 31, 2009, 02:04:56 PM »
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #104 on: January 01, 2010, 09:53:17 AM »
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.
Saves don't matter in Epic, I believe.  Everyone gets the same progression.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #105 on: January 01, 2010, 10:03:50 AM »
Actually, Survivor could be useful in Epic: You don't lose much (except for skillpoints and HP), but gain a lot of useful defensive class features to round off your character's survivability. Granted, the saying "the best defense is a good offense" is probably even more true in Epic, and DR 5/- isn't going to get you very far. But Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, as well as all good saves, are not bad. Might be as good as a +/-0 for non-casters.
Saves don't matter in Epic, I believe.  Everyone gets the same progression.

Correct. and BAB.

Empirate

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #106 on: January 01, 2010, 11:39:18 AM »
I never really played Epic, and only did a quick once-over of the basic rules years ago. So what do the Epic-savvy folks think? Is Survivor viable or not?

HCL

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #107 on: January 02, 2010, 01:18:34 AM »
How about the prestige ranger/bard/paladin variants from unearthed arcana?

I think that prestige paladin is definitely +1 tier as a 1-2 level dip for a cleric. If you take all of it it might be +0. You just invest a few skill ranks and Mounted Combat (which is not a bad fighting style if you use a lance and continue to pick up the Spirited Charge chain). You get all the pally spells on your list, full bab, pally class features at double progression (most importantly cha to saves and special mount at level 2), martial weapon and heavy armor proficiencies and a d10 hit die. And it stacks for the purposes of turning. 1/2 spellcasting progression (though most important level is 1, and that level advances it). If you drop out at level 2 all you really have lost is a feat some skills and 1 caster level and have gained a lot.

Prestige bard is +1 for a warmage entry, probably -2 if it is a sorc/wiz entry. You get the bard spell list at level 1 and then you can use bardic music, possibly picking up Extra music and the feat that lets you use the music to power DMM. Warmage knows everything on its list so it is more spellcasting oriented than music oriented. You have to burn a feat on Apprentice Performer and a lot of skill points to get in though.

Prestige Ranger is a -1 tier for a druid entry. You have to invest 3 bad feats to get in, you get screwed into a bad fighting style, and you have poor spellcasting progression and no wildshape progression. The main attraction here is the ranger spell list, but if you want that just play an archivist.

juton

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #108 on: January 02, 2010, 04:27:18 AM »
RE: Prestige Paladin/Bard/Ranger

I think your right HCL, prestige Paly is probably a +1 as a dip, especially if you go all out and pick up battle blessing. It gets out right broken if you can combine it with Sword of the Arcane Order, but I don't think that works by RAW and it sounds like something that would get a DMG thrown at you for.

Prestige Bard has two other uses besides Warmage entry. I've seen it dipped to qualify for sublime chord or fochlucan lyricist builds, which if done right breaks you even. The other is for gishes, it allows casting in light armour, again this is a +0 because at most you take two levels and gishes are giving up power anyways.

Prestige Ranger sucks, easily a -2 if a druid is going into it. You can get in with Spirit Shaman, or as a Cleric with the animal domain, but why would you? Unless by serendipity you have Endurance, Track and either PBS or TWF it would be easier to just cherry pick the Ranger spells you want using the Extra Spell feat.

One important * that a lot of people miss is you are supposed to only use these prestige classes if the corresponding base class is made unavailable. That may disqualify them from some games.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #109 on: January 02, 2010, 04:46:08 PM »
RE: Prestige Paladin/Bard/Ranger

I think your right HCL, prestige Paly is probably a +1 as a dip, especially if you go all out and pick up battle blessing. It gets out right broken if you can combine it with Sword of the Arcane Order, but I don't think that works by RAW and it sounds like something that would get a DMG thrown at you for.

Prestige Bard has two other uses besides Warmage entry. I've seen it dipped to qualify for sublime chord or fochlucan lyricist builds, which if done right breaks you even. The other is for gishes, it allows casting in light armour, again this is a +0 because at most you take two levels and gishes are giving up power anyways.

Prestige Ranger sucks, easily a -2 if a druid is going into it. You can get in with Spirit Shaman, or as a Cleric with the animal domain, but why would you? Unless by serendipity you have Endurance, Track and either PBS or TWF it would be easier to just cherry pick the Ranger spells you want using the Extra Spell feat.

One important * that a lot of people miss is you are supposed to only use these prestige classes if the corresponding base class is made unavailable. That may disqualify them from some games.

PrC Ranger is good if you are a Swift Hunter. You end up with better spell selection using Cloistered Cleric. Scout 4/CC 1/PrC Ranger 15. But it isn't a casting-focused build.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #110 on: January 02, 2010, 04:55:11 PM »
Shouldn't Prestige Paladin get a rating as a fighter prestige class with a logical entry of Fighter 4/ Cleric 1 or Fighter 3/ Cleric 2? I know this is kinda stacking the deck cause if cleric was a 19 level prestige class you could enter at lvl 2 it would be a +4 prestige class but, the cleric heavy entries can't reach PP 15 at level 20 so even though it's a more powerful build cleric 8 isn't the logical entry if you're in for the long haul. I'll be counting cleric 1 as if it were the first level of the prestige class.

Prestige Paladin +1

Logical Entry: Fighter 4/Cleric 1

you lose: 8 fighter feats, 1 hp, 1 BAB

gain: 2 domains( potentially 2 feat equivilents), 5th lvl casting from the cleric a paladin lists, detect  evil at will, turn undead, divine grace, lay on hands, speacial mount (as core paladin 2 levels below your ecl), aura of courage, divine health, remove disease 3/day, smite evil 4/day.


HCL

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #111 on: January 02, 2010, 07:44:38 PM »
Shouldn't Prestige Paladin get a rating as a fighter prestige class with a logical entry of Fighter 4/ Cleric 1 or Fighter 3/ Cleric 2? I know this is kinda stacking the deck cause if cleric was a 19 level prestige class you could enter at lvl 2 it would be a +4 prestige class but, the cleric heavy entries can't reach PP 15 at level 20 so even though it's a more powerful build cleric 8 isn't the logical entry if you're in for the long haul. I'll be counting cleric 1 as if it were the first level of the prestige class.

Prestige Paladin +1

Logical Entry: Fighter 4/Cleric 1

you lose: 8 fighter feats, 1 hp, 1 BAB

gain: 2 domains( potentially 2 feat equivilents), 5th lvl casting from the cleric a paladin lists, detect  evil at will, turn undead, divine grace, lay on hands, speacial mount (as core paladin 2 levels below your ecl), aura of courage, divine health, remove disease 3/day, smite evil 4/day.



Unnecessary fighter levels IMO. Straight cleric qualifies at 6th level, cloistered cleric has to wait until 8th

JaronK

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #112 on: January 02, 2010, 10:20:34 PM »
Cloistered Cleric actually qualifies at 7 (and thus can take the PrC at 8) if it uses DMM to keep Divine Power up.  I used that method in a recent game.  Regular Cleric does qualify at 6 and get in at 7.  And PrC Paladin is a great Cleric PrC, but I wouldn't want it on a Fighter entry.  A two level dip loses just one caster level and puts a bunch of new spells on your spell list, plus you get a mount (which with Holy Mount actually is better than a regular Paladin mount).  It's also of course an important part of many Supermount builds, though in that case the casting is less important.  I still wouldn't use it with Fighter though.

JaronK
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 10:22:10 PM by JaronK »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #113 on: January 02, 2010, 10:31:29 PM »
1 level dip of PrC Pally is at least +2 for most of my builds, and actually, it's like +487 as a one level dip for a Cheater of Mystra, as they then get the whole Sor/Wiz list in addition to being barny bad ass inside an AMF.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #114 on: January 02, 2010, 11:26:59 PM »
I agree that PrC Pally is +2 if you read Dragon Magic to allow SotAO and/or Battle Blessing.

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #115 on: January 02, 2010, 11:32:10 PM »
Don't think that actually works for SotAO, since, IIRC, it isn't an "Initiate Feat"
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wackodraco

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #116 on: January 04, 2010, 10:26:18 PM »
Complete Champion:
Fist of the Forest: [spoiler]Nothing too new or interesting; primal living is a great setback.
Neither up nor down a tier, maybe up one in the right circumstances. About the only thing this has over the similar monk is a faster unarmed progression, Full BAB, and d10 hd. It loses will save. If the AC bonus stacks with that of say, the monk, it's cool, but still not a significant bump in power[/spoiler]
Forest Reeve: [spoiler]In a low magic setting, earth's defender is cool. Otherwise, not really. If you have any sort of magical weaponry, it's next to useless- a +3 weapon at level 10? Not too impressive.
Fast movement is nifty but not too big.
Nature's Rejuvenation is cool in flavor, but it isn't that great. The rest of the abilities, save whispers of the forest, are kinda ehhhh. Whispers of the forest is useful, but 1/day is kinda lame.
The chasis is not that great, either- it gains little compared to the ranger.
It's probably +0, at best. It doesn't make your life any worse, but it doesn't do anything too cool or interesting. Does not progress ranger/druid casting.[/spoiler]
Holt Warden: [spoiler]Full casting, so at least somewhat useful. Seems to be a transformative class- probably good with cleric entry. Plant domain is useful but not astounding. Earth's Communion is great for out of combat healing at the level it comes (as early as lvl. 8!) but doesn't really change the game too much.
Whispers of the Forest is cool, if only for the insight ability.
Web of Life is AWESOME. In short.
So, I'd say up 1 tier in general. With cleric entry, up as much as 2 tiers.[/spoiler]
Mythic Exemplar: [spoiler]Class is very modular, so could be useful. Can be as much as 8/10 casting with Imdastri or Ktolemange as patron. Otherwise is 5/10, which is crap unless you don't care about casting anyway (full BAB class) but then you're taking a hit to BAB with the class's 3/4 BAB.
Seems like best path is probably Imdastri, for the capstone- even then, at MOST MOST MOST +1 tier. Luck, Protection and Strength are great domains, but probably not worth 2 levels of casting. You could do better, but you could do a lot worse. For a cleric entry, which seems the most logical, you're gaining the one thing you don't have- class abilities.
Would be more solidly up one tier if it gave Full BAB on some of the paths.[/spoiler]
Ordained Champion:
[spoiler]Well spoken of for gish clerics, and for good reason. Bonus domain, Combat Feats, and Continued advancement all make Ordained Champion mesh well with a cleric entry. Modified Spontaneous Casting is bump in power- spontaneous curing is kinda lame. Harming is a mixed bag.
Diehard is cool but taking endurance sucks, so getting it for free is cool but not incredible.
Smite is useful because it's not limited by alignment. The charisma synergy is kinda crap cause of MAD, but still useful.
Channel Spell is AWESOME. Like, hands down AMAZING. I cannot praise this ability enough.
Divine Bulwark is nice because DR is useful in combat no matter what and you have swift actions all the time.
Fist of the Gods is nice, once again, swift action economy plus combat usefulness.
Rapid Spontaneous Casting. HERE IT IS. This is great. Now, instead of having to Persistify Divine Power, you can instead pop one off as a Swift action in the first round of combat. This is an AMAZING ability. The war domain is useful in general, and this pumps its usefulness.
Holy Warrior is interesting, but not so useful. It is not bad, and certainly has uses, but is mostly eclipsed by Intuitave Strike. This is useful, however, in that it applies to all weapons. Useful if your Wis is higher, which it almost certainly is. In fact, With four turning uses (you don't need them so much for persistent effects with the Rapid Spontaneous) you can do it for the standard 4 encounters/day.
War Caster is Gravy. +2 CL is nice but not game changing.
For a Gish cleric, which the class deliberately caters to, the Ordained is AMAZING. It is easily up one tier, and probably up two- for a cleric. If you enter as a paladin, it's still useful, but not as much. Archivists will LOVe it, as well. The Chasis is good, with full BAB, d8, and the two good saves being the important ones. The only thing it doesn't really have is skill points, but a Cloistered Cleric entry fixes that.[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Apostle
[spoiler]Lore is a Bardic Knowledge Clone, and is useful, but mostly a roleplay device. Holy Texts is nice for cleric entry, but would be much better if it granted Turning if you didn't already have it. Knowledge is Power is the cornerstone of the class; depending on the ones you select, you could be great or awful. None of them are particularly useful or gamebreaking, but they are neat perks. Mind over Matter is great for any wizard; there's a plethora of summoning abilities that would be nice for a Malconvoker.
In general, up .5 tier. Maybe up one, maybe neither up nor down.
[/spoiler]
Paragnostic Intitate:
[spoiler]The combat focused counterpart of the Paragnostic Apostle. Their abilities are focused on assiting casters. On initial glance, the Chasis is pretty impressive- full BAB, two good saves (F and R), 6+ skills per level with a decent list, and d8 hd.
The Tactical Combat abilities are the mainstay of the class; most of them are useful but not greatly so. Perhaps the most useful is Mystical Augmentation, if the domain is chosen carefully. They aren't that valuable, in the end.
The Assist Casting abilities are useful, but in many ways require difficult circumstances- Distraction will reasonably almost never be used, and is moderately valuable when it is. Target is useful if one of your casters loves damage spells to death, which is not really a great thing.
Penetration is a very minor bonus; the once per round limitation keeps it from being highly useful. Tactical Combat's usefulness is shaky, at best.
The Paragnostic Initiate is neither up nor down a tier.[/spoiler]
Sanctified One:
[spoiler]Another modular PRC; entry reqs indicate that it's intended for a character with good combat skills, yet it only has three quarter BAB. Three good saves, otoh, is pretty great, and d8 HD is average. The paths themselves aren't that great- they give you choice of abilities. The spellcasting progression seems misplaced, too. A cleric could enter, but would lose two levels of casting for some etcetera abilities; the class is said to not be intended for paladins and none of the dieties the class caters to are LG, so no go. The class is a slight improvement for a melee type, and a loss for a caster. So, with Cleric entry, -1, any other +0.
[/spoiler]
Shadowspy:
[spoiler]Little schizophrenic. Has skillmoney requirements with casting requirements; necessitates multiclassing.
Only advances casting 1/2 of time, three quarter BAB, d6 hd, but good reflex and wll saves. The abilities primarily emulate spells that you would've gotten anyway if you didn't multiclass for it; I'd say unless there's some optimized entry, you're looking at -1 to even -2. It simply doesn't fulfill any role to well, nor does it do anything too new or interesting.
[/spoiler]
Shadowstriker:
[spoiler]Bit better than shadowspy. Full BAB, two good saves, easy entry requirements. Badge of Office is a roleplay and poorly defined ability; it's 100% setting dependent. Luminous Weapon is nice, but increases MAD. D'oh! Smite Evil is useful but not too groundbreaking. Sun's Blessing can only be used 1/day unless you have another source of smite/turn/spontaneous casting, and unless you're specifically using it for the Daylight effect, it's pretty much suck. Surge of Piety is much the same, and only works on Undead. In the right campaigns this is useful, but in general, the shadowstriker is +0 tiers.[/spoiler]
Squire of Legend:[spoiler] Entry Requirements are very broad; you can enter from almost anything, really.
As fro the class abilities, the chassis is relatively poor- one good save, your choice, three quarter BAB (but it comes out to only one point lost as the class is 3 levels).
Squire's Burden is the mainstay of the class's power; as such, it is your primary combat ability. However, it's none too special; the various paths are relatively balanced against one another, but do not grant a lot of power. Reikhardt's least ability is actually quite useful- burning standard actions for someone else to take one seems like a bad joke, but a fighter, for instance, is less useful attacking or even full attacking than the wizard or cleric is casting another spell. However, as the abilities are usable once per day, they don't come up that often.
All in all, the squire of legend is useful but not incredibly so. I'd say it's between +0 and +1 in terms of power; it does little unique or extensively useful. The note about using leadership to acquire a Squire of Legend is largely developer wanking- it isn't any more overpowering than a warblade or other similar T3 class of the same level. A white raven warblade does the whole thing better, for example.[/spoiler]
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Optimator

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2010, 12:42:56 AM »
I concur.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2010, 12:52:29 AM »
Fist of the Forest- I'd call this +1, maybe +2. Con to AC is a great benefit and allows barbarian monks to get GREAT ACs. And faster Monk progression? Hell yeah! It's really really fast! Drop 3 levels and be what, a 16th level monk unarmed?

Ordained Champion- Cleric dip on a Paladin character is another great way to do it. +1.5 for me.  :P


sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2010, 01:28:35 AM »
Agreed that Fist of the Forest is classic for the Con-to-AC, especially since it doesn't replace Dex and applies against touch attacks.  +1 at least, especially since it's more or less a Monk PrC.