Author Topic: An Optimized Fighter  (Read 17274 times)

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woodenbandman

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2009, 06:06:21 PM »
Fighter 20 in my book would look like this:

Goliath Fighter 19, wielding a Greathammer or any reach weapon. Zhentarim, probably.

1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2: Dungeoncrasher
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Standstill
6: Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher (improved)
8: Knockback
9: Martial Study: Crusader's Strike
10: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
12: Robilar's Gambit
14: Karmic Strike
15: Defensive Sweep
16: Open Feat (I hear the optional class feature from PHB 2 is good at this level.)
18: Open Feat, Open Feat (You could go for trip if you really wanted to)

Max Strength, Con and Dex secondary. You may want to push back some feats to get endurance and steadfast determination.

Alastar

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2009, 06:06:49 PM »
Actually.... Drizzt is refered to as a ranger the whole time, and artemis as an assassin.

And you don't want to see the builds... like, Reaaaaalllly dont wanna, never saw a lvl 16 character do 1d6+5 with his main attack?  Go check out drizzt!!!  No wonder he's a ccr 18 who has problems taking down three cr 11 giants...

In a thread on the wiz boards, i had remade drizzt to be a bit more efficient, i could translate that here.

Sorry for derailing.  

Serving an elder evil does not, AFAIK, prevent you from being raised.

If a fighter prc can be dipped, maybe bloodstorm blade, as it allows you to become a ranged menace without actually having to invest in a bow.  

Midnight_v

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2009, 07:05:13 PM »
Actually.... Drizzt is refered to as a ranger the whole time, and artemis as an assassin.

And you don't want to see the builds... like, Reaaaaalllly dont wanna, never saw a lvl 16 character do 1d6+5 with his main attack?  Go check out drizzt!!!  No wonder he's a ccr 18 who has problems taking down three cr 11 giants...

In a thread on the wiz boards, i had remade drizzt to be a bit more efficient, i could translate that here.

Sorry for derailing.  

Serving an elder evil does not, AFAIK, prevent you from being raised.

If a fighter prc can be dipped, maybe bloodstorm blade, as it allows you to become a ranged menace without actually having to invest in a bow.  

You misunderstood what I meant. I have the builds right here as well as every salvatore book my point was it can go either way.
They both go by Ranger and Assassin respectively but really They only have about 2 levels the class name they go by each. Jus saying. meh.
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Paradox

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2009, 10:23:12 PM »
While i'm tempted say "Yeah? Well, fuck you" I may just be taking that statement wrong and somewhat personally but its pretty open ended since you didn't specify which reasons you find "stupid".

However, it's more important to make the point clear that NONE of this is derailment.
What your seeing is the response to a discussion about an optimized build. If you don't get that go to surreals handy links and click on any "build" and see the things that go on there. Better in this thread up to the Lockdowne build link and you can see the S.O.P is pretty well standard.
You post something.
Your peers pick it apart with varied comments, critizicims, reservations, recriminations, and suggestsions... which you either accept. Or defend against.
Thats typically how this works.
  If your willing to listen to reason about somethings and/or present a strong coherent argument about why you've picked this over that and why what you've chosen is 1. Valid 2. More optimal that some other choice.
  Generally you get lauded for your work and the esteem of your peers.
So there you go.
One shouldn't feel sorry for Dark_samurai... this is generally how the processes goes unless of course you've come up with some clearly superior and definitive work.
See
I'm going to possibly estimate and project that the disagreements entailed within this thread spawn from different interpretation or of semantics. It was probably a mistake on my part to label the thread & build as something that may have created such reactions, and I recognize it.

So stepping outside and beyond of the disagreements, how could I further optimize the initial build?

Missing the point seems an error in the direction of stupidity

also

Are grafts, particularly the fiendish ones, on the whole, worth their price?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2009, 10:27:36 PM »
A few of them are really nice.  They're a bad deal overall for nonevil characters, but excellent for the bad guys.
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lans

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Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2009, 07:46:06 PM »
I like the idea of a most optimized X builds thread

The thing is, when a Wizard PrCs, he still gains all his Wizard spellcasting, which is the primary Wizard thing.  When a Fighter multiclasses, he's not gaining the main Fighter stuff anymore.
Psionic warrior, monk, and feat rogue, ranger,  swordsage dips could be argued to give the main fighter stuff(feats).

Quote
So yeah, almost every Fighter build could benefit greatly from a 1 level dip into Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian, or a Crusader dip, or a Warblade dip.  But an "optimized Fighter" thread should try to stick entirely to Fighters, just to show an example of the best they can do.
I like two level dips into classes that give two feats, its like the best fighter levels all over again, but I can understand desire to keep it to one class.

[spoiler]For that, I'd say go with something like this:

Human Fighter (Zhentarium, Dungeoncrasher, Thug variants)
Stats:  Min Str 13, Min Int 14, Min Dex 13, focus on boosting Str, Con, and Dex.  Keep all knowledge skills related to creatures maxed, as well as Intimidate
Level 1:  Two Flaws (take your pick), Power Attack, Educated, Improved Bull Rush
Level 2:  Dungeoncrasher 1 (knock enemies into walls for extra damage)
Level 3:  Skill Focus: Intimidation, Imperious Command
Level 4:  Knowledge Devotion
Level 5:  Extended Intimidation (intimidation to raise disposition lasts longer)
Level 6:  Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher 2 (more damage from slamming people into walls)
Level 8:  Leap Attack
Level 9:  Swift Demoralization (Intimidate as a Swift action)
Level 10: Knockback (must have gotten Permanent Enlarge Person by this point)
Level 12: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level 14: Point Blank Shot
Level 15: Rapid Shot
Level 16: Woodland Archery
Level 18: Precise Shot, Far Shot
Level 20: Standstill

Basic gear:  Bracers of Archery, an Eager Greatbow with Splitting as soon as you can afford it, a Valorous Glaive with other useful mods when you can afford them (possibly a Valorous Skillfull Meteor Hammer at high levels), a few items that give you manuevers once per encounter for Shadow Jaunt and Sudden Leap, items that boost intimidation, something to let you fly (maybe a flying mount), items that boost knowledge checks, Permanent Enlarge Person by level 10, Spiked armor of some kind.

Tactics:  You can charge for enormous damage, killing almost anything you can hit this way (by level 8 it's +32 damage from power attack alone, and Knowledge Devotion is giving nice bonuses too).   By level 10 Knockback provides huge bonuses to damage as you slam people back into walls, and knocking back people you've charged will help you charge again if you need.  Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick and you can AoE intimidate everyone nearby to cowering as a swift action once per encounter (and intimidate a single target as a swift action once per round), which lets you target Will saves in addition to AC... and you can still coup de gras your cowering target, since you've still got a full round action left.  Your archery damage should be pretty darn good too, especially with Knowledge Devotion, so you can be a solid threat from range as well.  Furthermore, if you use Knockback to knock one enemy into another, they both get tripped and you get free Improved Trip attacks against both of them... and then knock both back again for more damage.[/spoiler]
I like the build, but I would consider trying to work in talenta boomerang proficiency, boomerang daze, and boomerang ricochet. Use Unearth Arcana rules to pick up exotic weapon proficiency, and change woodland archery and rapid shot out for the other two. Also consider dropping combat expertise and improved trip at level 12 for stand still and combat reflexess. Maybe swap knock back for power throw.

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JaronK

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Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2009, 11:44:59 PM »
Psionic warrior, monk, and feat rogue, ranger,  swordsage dips could be argued to give the main fighter stuff(feats).

No, that's another class just giving you the features of a Fighter.  Not quite the same thing... it's not the fact that you're a Fighter that makes you get bonus feats as a Monk or something.  It's the fact that you're a Wizard that gives you your awesome casting as a Wizard/PrC.

JaronK

dark_samuari

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2009, 12:24:54 AM »
I would ask you guys to refrain from going off the topic, which happens to be offering up any critique towards the initial build.

DerWille

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2009, 11:37:55 AM »
I was thinking, if you were willing, you could throw in Wolf Totem (UA variant) Barbarian for the improved trip at Barbarian 2. And by taking Wolf Berserker (Unapproachable East) you can net another +4 to trip attempts and remove Combat Expertise. Then you could drop int down to 10 to add the points somewhere else, dex would probably be a good bet. Then maybe drop dreadful wrath for intimidating rage. The intimidating rage + imperious command would give the same general effect of demoralizing everyone around you. Instead of a DC 10 + 1/2 character level + cha modifier will save, it would be a standard demoralize check. The rage will also enhance your trip/bull rush attempts a bit.

Midnight_v

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2009, 12:00:47 PM »
Thats the trick ...
but for the "nuts" to it take either the "ferocity" variant or take the
Instantaneous rage. 
... thus you can scare people out of thier actions before even if they win intitiative.

I think I mentioned it before... the whole "reactive rage trick" Thats what I was talking about.
Basically barbarian 1 (ferocity)/Fighter9 (well cause he's level 10 right now) But there are a lot of options that you could stack to any of these things. Really,
I like the build because it has "Fear" and charging and, karmic strike. . .
Its really very pleasing. I'd retrain it though to take robliars at 12 and free up some feats for other things.
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Alastar

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2009, 12:10:18 PM »
No retraining for you mister ;)

you stick with what you got.

DerWille

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2009, 01:07:40 PM »
Thats the trick ...
but for the "nuts" to it take either the "ferocity" variant or take the
Instantaneous rage. 
... thus you can scare people out of thier actions before even if they win intitiative.

I think I mentioned it before... the whole "reactive rage trick" Thats what I was talking about.
Basically barbarian 1 (ferocity)/Fighter9 (well cause he's level 10 right now) But there are a lot of options that you could stack to any of these things. Really,
I like the build because it has "Fear" and charging and, karmic strike. . .
Its really very pleasing. I'd retrain it though to take robliars at 12 and free up some feats for other things.

 That is awesome. Where do you find the ferocity variant at? Also, is it to take whirling frenzy too? So he can enter rage, scare the shit out of everyone, trip one guy and then with the second attack bull rush someone else to do his dungeon crashing shock trooper thing?

Eldariel

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2009, 01:42:05 PM »
Fighter 20 in my book would look like this:

Goliath Fighter 19, wielding a Greathammer or any reach weapon. Zhentarim, probably.

1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2: Dungeoncrasher
3: Combat Reflexes
4: Standstill
6: Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher (improved)
8: Knockback
9: Martial Study: Crusader's Strike
10: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
12: Robilar's Gambit
14: Karmic Strike
15: Defensive Sweep
16: Open Feat (I hear the optional class feature from PHB 2 is good at this level.)
18: Open Feat, Open Feat (You could go for trip if you really wanted to)

Max Strength, Con and Dex secondary. You may want to push back some feats to get endurance and steadfast determination.

You're missing crucial feats in Mage Slayer (you're going Lockdown? Yeah, you need it) and Leap Attack (since you do charging). Also, Complete Champion ACF "Resolute" makes Steadfast Determination mostly redundant, although you might want both. There's also the feat that allows you to cut bullrush distance to knock an opponent prone instead; absolutely incredible since you lack Tripping and having a means to make people lie down kicks ass.

Karmic Strike has to go since you don't qualify. And yeah, the alternative class feature "Overpowering Attack" from PHBII is a good option for level 16 as far as lockdown is concerned; double damage on all AoOs if you skip your iteratives. Too bad one can't fit Pierce Magical Concealment anymore; oh well. And if you have Zhentarim subs, being able to pick Imperious Command would be seriously awesome. Too bad getting the Cha together is non-trivial for a Fighter, especially since you need Dex to which you have -2. That said, as he makes do without Int (and the derived Improved Trip & Karmic Strike), it's doable; 34pb:

16 Str (10) -> 20 Str
16 Dex (10) -> 14 Dex
14 Con (6) -> 16 Con
8 Int (0) -> 8 Int
8 Wis (0)  -> 8 Wis
15 Cha (8) -> 15 Cha

leaving 32pb with mere 13 Dex, but that's still enough for Combat Reflexes and Full-Plate and can be buffed later. Pity about the skillpoints; losing one feat for Thug might not be a bad plan to be honest. With 15 Cha and the Skilled City-Dweller ACFs, there's a number of stuff you could find useful.


Thats the trick ...
but for the "nuts" to it take either the "ferocity" variant or take the
Instantaneous rage.  
... thus you can scare people out of thier actions before even if they win intitiative.

I think I mentioned it before... the whole "reactive rage trick" Thats what I was talking about.
Basically barbarian 1 (ferocity)/Fighter9 (well cause he's level 10 right now) But there are a lot of options that you could stack to any of these things. Really,
I like the build because it has "Fear" and charging and, karmic strike. . .
Its really very pleasing. I'd retrain it though to take robliars at 12 and free up some feats for other things.

 That is awesome. Where do you find the ferocity variant at? Also, is it to take whirling frenzy too? So he can enter rage, scare the shit out of everyone, trip one guy and then with the second attack bull rush someone else to do his dungeon crashing shock trooper thing?

Ferocity can be found in the Cityscape Web Enhancement, same as Skilled City-Dweller (switching skills around). Instantaneous Rage [CWar] makes standard Rage and Whirling Frenzy work too though, though at extra feat cost. Imperious Command [DoTU] (which makes the whole "scare people shitless to deny them actions"-thing work) is awesome but expensive.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:44:42 PM by Eldariel »

ninjarabbit

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2009, 02:32:05 PM »
Here's how I'd do a fighter 20

Human Fighter 20

1-education, point blank shot, precise shot, weapon focus: longbow
2-rapid shot
3-knowledge devotion
4-weapon specialization: longbow
5
6-woodland archer, item familiar
7
8-ranged weapon mastery
9-manyshot
10-greater weapon focus: longbow
11
12-greater weapon specialization: longbow, improved precise shot
13
14-resoulte (trade feat for ACF)
15-open feat
16-Armor of God ACF
17
18-Aligned strike ACF, open feat
19
20-open feat

Eventually I'll do a mounted fighter archer and a raptorian fighter archer.

Eldariel

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2009, 03:03:59 PM »
You really should go Thug for a Knowledge Devotion-build. Also, you're picking Resolute way too late; level 14 sees you as someone's buttmonkey for a long while already; I'd personally switch Woodland Archer and Resolute around as you need a number of iteratives for it to work out. And if you bother with the whole GWS-line, might as well pick up Weapon Supremacy on 18. And obviously, Targetteer would improve this.

woodenbandman

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2009, 07:25:19 PM »
I just pulled that build off the top of my head. Also note I DID leave 3 open feats. So it's just a matter of hacking in pierce magical concealment, mage slayer, and pierce magical protection.

I just put Zhentarim in there because +4 size bonus, and it's free.

Eldariel

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Re: An Optimized Fighter
« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2009, 08:24:00 PM »
I just pulled that build off the top of my head. Also note I DID leave 3 open feats. So it's just a matter of hacking in pierce magical concealment, mage slayer, and pierce magical protection.

I just put Zhentarim in there because +4 size bonus, and it's free.

Well, Zhentarim is all sorts of awesome with Imperious Command; definitely a trick worth having in your bag especially since it attacks aspects in your opponent Fighters can rarely target. I definitely wouldn't leave Leap Attack out either and if not going Expertise (and thus Int-focus), I'd definitely go Thug. And can't leave Resolute out - killing your own party fcking sucks. Quick attempt at such a variation:

1: Power Attack
2: Dungeoncrasher
3: Improved Bull Rush, Skill Focus: Intimidate (Zhentarim)
4: Resolute
6: Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher (improved)
8: Knockback
9: Imperious Command
10: Combat Reflexes
12: Robilar's Gambit, Martial Study
14: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades
15: Stand Still
16: Overpowering Attack/Defensive Sweep (both are pretty handy though I'd probably go with Sweep as chances to use Overpowering Attack on a Bull Rush-build are sorta rare)
18: Mage Slayer, Leap Attack


Bleh, misses out Rampaging Bull Rush but c'est la vie. Feels pretty decent overall, hitting low AC- and low Str-types really hard from level 6 and low Wis-types hard from level 9 and has decent HP, Fort & Will with an ok AC on low levels (and probably Mithril Breastplate with +6 Dex item later on, fooling around with Chain Shirts and such on low levels).

Has a nice skill list though (Bluff, Intimidate, Gather Information, Sleight of Hand, Tumble as per Cityscape Web Enhancement, Knowledge (Local), Jump and so on) with very decent capabilities to function in social situations (though no Diplomacy outside the substitution-levels; mayhap max it out there though); too bad about the lack of heavy armor for low levels, complete lack of ranged capability and the lateness of the AoO capabilities. Still, I think it's a very servicable melee Fighter, especially as far as the Fighter-class goes and quite versatile to boot.