Author Topic: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.  (Read 39274 times)

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Ikeren

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2010, 03:24:06 AM »
Quote
Cons:Getting into this PrC is the biggest problem. It requires a lot of skill points, being able to speak druidic, being able to cast 1st level divine and arcane spells, bardic music abilities, evasion, and you'll have to be at ECL 10 before you can get into FL because of requiring 13 ranks in perform. At bare minimum you're looking at something like rogue2/bard2/druid1. The end result is a character that's all over the place before you get into FL and completely sucking for at least half of your pre-epic career.

Pros: FL is nice once you actually get into it: full BAB, full CL progression of both arcane and divine spellcasting, 6 skill points/level, and full progression of bardic knowledge and music. There are ways of possibily getting around some of these requirements like a ring of evasion, the combat medic PrC (a casting PrC that grants evasion), or somehow convincing a druid or ex-druid to teach you druidic. Condensed spellcasting PrCs like sublime chord do make it possible to get 9th level spells.

Pretty sure Fochlucan is +0 or +1, +1 for sure, maybe +2 if campaign starts above level 15. Be evil, torture a druid, and do something like Bard 1/Wizard 5/Prestige class 3/Urpriest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyracist 9. Use Incarnum stuff to get evasion.
More hilariously; Bard1/Wizard 3/Anything 1 (including Wizard, martial class, wizard PRC, etc)/Martial Class 1/JPM 3/Urpriest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyracist 9
You need 18 int, bumped at 4 and 8, and human to pull the skills off. Plus able learner. And flaws. But hey, you get 17 BAB, 9th level arcane and divine casting, 10th level bardic music, and a small stack of manouvers.
Basically, it's a great prestige class if you're creative and your DM is friendly, and you start above level 10. And if feats that grant a class feature are a class feature. And if you torture a druid. And are willing to suffer insane MAD.

I guess that kinda is a long list of conditionals.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

bearsarebrown

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2010, 03:30:21 AM »
I think if something has that many conditionals it should be a -1. It's just so hard to make it worthwhile. But it can be made very worthwhile with tons of work.

A -2 PrC, IMO, should be redeemable up to +0/+1 range with heavy CO. The builds Ikeren just listed easily redeem the class to +2 territory with heavy CO.

Ikeren

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2010, 04:14:05 AM »
And if you look at the more honest Fochlucan builds,

Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 3/Spelldancer 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10
You lose a single level of druidic casting and wildeshape for your 4th attack, far better skills, 14th level bardic casting and music.

While Wildshape is admittedly godly, it's not like you're slaughtering your druid right there.

Or the melee builds:

Ranger 9/Bard 2/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8

You're swapping some ranger spells and abilities for 9 levels of druid casting and 10 levels of Bard casting. Using fractional BAB, you get a 19, otherwise 18. Arguably improving the ranger.

Surreal

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2010, 05:37:43 AM »
I am of the opinion that the FL is not meant to give you full 9/9 casting. I know the doctrines of CO make us shoehorn as much casting as possible into everything, but sometimes you need to look at the intent of the design. The FL is a bard focused PrC foremost. Considering it as an extension from bard*, I would say it's a +1.


*not Bard+Sublime Chord, because as soon as you start throwing more PrCs into the mix (especially when they have their own casting progression), you're not dealing with the original base anymore
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Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Hijax

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2010, 10:17:42 AM »
I am of the opinion that the FL is not meant to give you full 9/9 casting. I know the doctrines of CO make us shoehorn as much casting as possible into everything, but sometimes you need to look at the intent of the design. The FL is a bard focused PrC foremost. Considering it as an extension from bard*, I would say it's a +1.


*not Bard+Sublime Chord, because as soon as you start throwing more PrCs into the mix (especially when they have their own casting progression), you're not dealing with the original base anymore

true.

A bard 4/druid 1/FL 10/Bard 5 is certainly bad, but i'd say a straight bard was worse.
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Solo

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2010, 10:18:42 AM »
Straight bard isn't exactly bad...

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The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Ikeren

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2010, 03:49:28 PM »
Thats the thing; you have to at the very least gain druidic casting, so the question is:

Does it improve ranger: yes
Does it improve bard: yes
Bard 1/Druid 4/Green Whisperer 3/Spelldancer 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10 --- It probably is a -1 for a druid, depending on how much you love wildshape. But it's a +1 for a bard.
Does it improve x melee class you use to enter getting evasion if you make that choice?: Depends. If you go rogue 2 in a build, you'll still be a decently effective rogue, you'll likely have better BAB, and you'll likely have wonderful casting.
Generally, you're improving spellcasting on weak spellcasting classes, and improving melee on 3/4th BAB classes, and still getting 6 skills and 2 good saves.

Etarran

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #127 on: March 22, 2010, 04:13:29 PM »
Not to mention that even with the most honest builds, you don't really lose that much while you're building up to it - yes, your druid casting will be level behind, and you need to take some bad feats if you use the spelldancer entry, but we do a lot worse to ourselves to get into classes that don't have the best chassis of any class ever. With even the slightest optimization, it just straight up improves bards and rogues, and that's assuming the absolute strictest interpretation of the requirements and ignoring dual-advancement classes.

As Ikeren points out: Basically +1 or better if you think of yourself as anything that isn't a druid, and not worse than -1 if you think of yourself as a druid (and I would argue that most FL builds are really bard-with-druid rather than druid-with-bard).

ninjarabbit

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #128 on: March 22, 2010, 06:27:06 PM »
I think FL is -2 for druids, 0 for bards, and maybe +1 for things like rangers. Some bardic casting and music really doesn't benefit druid a whole lot and you'd be better off just taking druid levels. The full BAB and druidic spellcasting can help out bards but what you get is preety much equal to what you lose.

And there's the MAD issues which drag the class down a notch. You'll need Cha for bard stuff, wis for druidic spellcasting, int for all the skill points you'll need to qualify for this class, and since you're not wildshaping it means you can't dump your physical stats.

wotmaniac

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #129 on: March 22, 2010, 07:54:40 PM »
ah, but with obtain familiar and theurgic bond, you can still have a full animal companion -- that definitely improves things a bit.
So, now you've got you + your AC + a handful of summoned creatures that all get to benefit from your bardic music.  With bard1/druid2/evasion class 2/GW 5/FL 10, you get the highest level spells of both classes.  While, yes, this is yet another example of "specific optimizing", but come on -- it's very straight forward and is "honest".  I don't think that this PrC should be any less than a +0 -- full highest-spell-level casting in 2 classes, (almost) full bardic music, a full AC (with 2 simple feats); and all you are missing from 2 whole classes is a single class feature, that's it (granted, the class has to be supplemented with a couple of feats, but that is a whole lot less than the extreme acrobatics it takes to make many PrCs work well).

Just my 2cp.

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Reko

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #130 on: June 25, 2010, 12:13:54 PM »
Acolyte of the Skin becomes a little bit better if using Assassin as entry...

With high Int/Dex (and taking all AoS levels):

Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 5 / AoS 10

Probably have to burn a few skill points to get Knowledge(planes) as a cross-class skill high enough, and more as AoS to keep stealth skills high.  Helps with lower saves, makes you tougher and full Assassin spellcasting.  Giving up HIPS is a pain.

Still quite bobbins, but better than using a full caster for entry IMHO.

Edit: At CL20, Alter Self becomes more fun... Outsider.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2010, 12:16:42 PM by Reko »

braininthejar

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Re: Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
« Reply #131 on: December 19, 2010, 08:10:19 PM »
Your lifedrinker entry seems to have pros and cons switched...