Author Topic: Soul manifester (please help)  (Read 6183 times)

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dark_hound

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Soul manifester (please help)
« on: July 21, 2009, 03:51:24 PM »
New to psionics and Incarnum.  Starting a new game at 3rd level going epic and I want to try something new.  Can't really decide on which meld shaper to use though.  He's pretty much going to be a melee warrior with blasting control.  The incarnum handbook really didn't give me much help.

Game has 38 1 for 1 point buy.  This party is going to be big around 8-12 characters with a fighter, barbarian, warmage, wizard(mine too), healer, sorcerer, and rogue already paned out.  We use core books, complete x, races of destiny, stone, wild, and dragon, spell compendium, expanded psionic handbook, and some 3rd party books (feats, path of x mainly).

Build:
silverbrow human
totemist 2/egotist 3/soul manifester 3/egotist 2/anarchic initiate 1/soul manifester 7/anarchic initiate 2
Stats:
str- 16
dex- 14
con- 18
int- 18
wis- 12
cha- 8

base saves at 20th
fort +8, ref +8, will +14

Feats:
H-Psycarnum infusion
b- azure talent
1st- psicrystal affinity-nimble
3rd- draconic aura-power
6th-Psionic meditation
9th- linked power
B-overchannel
12th- draconic aura-power
15- EK schism
18-double draconic aura


When the campaign starts I'll have, precongnitive offensive, demoralize, and vigor choosen.

Going to get others party members into fear effects to become a group of fearmongers.

thanks for all the help :)  :banghead and no tells me I kept putting schism at the wrong level
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 03:23:03 PM by dark_hound »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Soul manifester
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 04:02:40 PM »
Spell-to-Power variant Erudite 6/Totemist 2/Soul Manifester 10/StP Erudite+2

Focus on Metamorphosis, buff-based powers, and go to town. Grab Divine Power and Arcane Fusion as soon as possible.


Avoid the shit out of Diamond Dragon. It isn't worth it.

Edit: Start with Totemist levels unless you really know how to play a caster-type. Use Vigor+Rage Claws to stay alive.


Also, read these threads.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 04:05:49 PM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

dark_hound

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Re: Soul manifester
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 04:57:29 PM »


Also, read these threads.

Done and where do you find the spell to power variant?

Also I thought diamond dragon would be nice to power the totemists dc saves

Negative Zero

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Re: Soul manifester
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 05:01:35 PM »

The Lurker

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 05:02:59 PM »
I'd go with Shaper 5/Anarchic Initiate 2/ Incarnate 1/ Soul Manifester 10/ AI +X

You only lose one level of casting.  You wanted to know the open chakra power anyways because you want higher level chakras faster.

And Erudite has the stupidist casting mechanic ever.  Unless you whore out arcane fusion and similar tricks, it's totally gimped because it gets powers known as a wilder that knows psychic reformation.  Most totemist melds are shit on a psion anyways.

Edit: Diamond dragon is still shit.  Sinfire got that right.

Edit2: He starts at third level.  I dare you to play an erudite 3 and try to make it to level 4.  Here's a hint:  You won't.
Furthermore, Erudites can't take more levels in a class than their erudite level or else they can't learn new powers.  This means you can't even take the tenth level of soul manifester til you have 11 erudite levels.

So yeah, don't play erudites.  The whole class is stupid.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 05:05:11 PM by The Lurker »

dark_samuari

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 07:13:54 PM »
So yeah, don't play erudites.  The whole class is stupid.

It's the sacrifice you make for playing an extremely powerful class...

The Lurker

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 07:46:16 PM »
So yeah, don't play erudites.  The whole class is stupid.

It's the sacrifice you make for playing an extremely powerful class...
Play an erudite at level 3 or five and tell me that it's more powerful than an equal level shaper.  Fuck, play an erudite at level NINE and tell me it's more powerful.

Guess what?  It's not.  Until you get the arcane fusion side step, you're weaker than a normal psion.  And once you do get it, you're still not using top end powers.  You're using lower than top end powers, so aren't very level appropriate.

A level 8 erudite is weaker in every way than a level 8 psion.  Once they hit level 9 and the erudite learns arcane fusion, he still blows because he's using fourth level spells while the psion is tossing out Psychic Crush.  The erudite is tossing out phantasmal killer.  Guess who is stronger?

woodenbandman

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 08:17:21 PM »
Plus the class is, you know, brokenly good at high levels.

I suggest either Shaper or Egoist. Metamorphosis + Soulmelds can be nice.

The Lurker

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009, 08:23:00 PM »
Plus the class is, you know, brokenly good at high levels.

I suggest either Shaper or Egoist. Metamorphosis + Soulmelds can be nice.
Yeah, so is everybody else.  Being MORE game raping at high level isn't anything to brag about.  I can rape the game with any full caster including regular old psion.  That doesn't help.
Starting a new game at 3rd level
Guys, read the OP.  Yes, erudite gets better than psion around level 12 and rapes the game from there.  But we honestly don't care because the OP's character could easily be dead or retired by level eight.

Now, onto something actually playable at level 3 and the levels close to it?  Because an erudite gets 2 powers to use each day at that level.  A psion gets quite literally 4.5 times as many AND gets discipline powers on time.

Negative Zero

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009, 09:08:57 PM »
I did just play an Erudite at level 3, and I got to level 4. Still, I can't deny that even with the Spell-to-Power variant, the low levels are pretty rough for an Erudite. It's like you're spontaneously casting from a spellbook, but you can only carry two pages at a time.

Anyway, Erudites can't take more levels than they have of Erudite in other Psionic Classes, which I believe means classes that grant psionics of their own, such as Wilder or Warmind, but not including prestige classes that advance psionics. Compare to the phrasing for prestige classes that progress casting, where they mention "Spellcasting class". That includes classes such as Wizard and Bard, but does not include classes such as Incantatrix or Archmage. Therefore, I think that "Psionic class" does not include Soul Manifester.

woodenbandman

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009, 09:32:27 PM »
Plus the class is, you know, brokenly good at high levels.

I suggest either Shaper or Egoist. Metamorphosis + Soulmelds can be nice.
Yeah, so is everybody else.  Being MORE game raping at high level isn't anything to brag about.  I can rape the game with any full caster including regular old psion.  That doesn't help.
Starting a new game at 3rd level
Guys, read the OP.  Yes, erudite gets better than psion around level 12 and rapes the game from there.  But we honestly don't care because the OP's character could easily be dead or retired by level eight.

Now, onto something actually playable at level 3 and the levels close to it?  Because an erudite gets 2 powers to use each day at that level.  A psion gets quite literally 4.5 times as many AND gets discipline powers on time.

Chill dude, I was just providing another con to being an erudite. Why would you want me to just repeat what you're doing so well at repeating already?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009, 10:04:54 PM »
Sometimes the cons outweigh the pros, and sometimes its the other way around. If he starts with Totemist and uses Erudite for Body Adjustment (or whichever one heals you)+Vigor, he'll fare better than a pure Erudite (Rage Claws FTW). Also, when he gets 3rd level powers (2nd level Arcane Spells) he can switch to Overchanneled Soul Boon for a few encounters to further improve himself.


The limit on powers/day is indeed restrictive, but with the right power selection he can Tank for the first 6 levels then Rape for the next 14.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

dark_hound

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2009, 10:59:24 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.  DM said no to the spell to power variant, mainly to keep things simple in a big group.

lurker please explain why most totemist melds are bad on a non-egoist psion?  I wanted diamond dragon for more hitpoints, frightfull presence, and base attack.  Is there a class (besides slayer) that can give me that?

Plus are there any suggestions on stats?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 01:24:56 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.  DM said no to the spell to power variant, mainly to keep things simple in a big group.

lurker please explain why most totemist melds are bad on a non-egoist psion?  I wanted diamond dragon for more hitpoints, frightfull presence, and base attack.  Is there a class (besides slayer) that can give me that?

Plus are there any suggestions on stats?

Sanctified Mind, from Lords of Madness. Still not worth it (you want 9th level Psionic powers more than you want Full BAB, trust us on this).


The reason is most Totemist soulmelds are combat/attack action-oriented, and the Egoist is the Psion variant that uses that particular action the most. Ergo the combo is the most efficient use of your soulmelds. Furthermore, your Natural Weapons granted by your Totem stack with the natural weapons you gain from using Metamorphosis, so you can go Girallon Arms the Metamorph into an actual Girallon for 8 Claw attacks/round. Finally, Egoist gives you the fastest access to actual Size increases/polymorph effects.

Incidentally, the above is why Druid//Totemist works so wonderfully in Gestalt games.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The Lurker

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 05:43:05 AM »
The site crashed when I tried to post, so I'll just give the shorthand.

1) Soul manifester is technically a psionic class.  Stupid, but them's the rules.
2) Getting into melee as a caster makes you not as effective as actually being a caster, so totemist is generally a bad idea as a caster.  If you want to be a better totemist, I can totally see what Sinfire is promoting, but that's not actually a psion.  That's a totemist.
3) Erudite is a fucking shitty class.  At low levels it's flat out worse in every way than psion and at high levels it's retarded broke.  Fuck Erudite.

@dark_hound

If you want to be a totemist, go as Sinfire said inially (except be an egoist instead of a gimped erudite).
If you want to be a caster, do what I initially suggested.

Either way, odds are very good that you'll die off or retire the character before level 18 (my version just has more anarchic initiate at the end), so don't sweat the levels after soul manifester.

Frightful presence can be gotten in quite a few places.  Like, more than I am willing to list here.  Pick one that you can get and enjoy.  Fear immunity and having more hit dice than you is common enough that you shouldn't sweat it if you can't get it conveniently though.

dark_hound

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 04:24:30 PM »
3) Erudite is a fucking shitty class.  At low levels it's flat out worse in every way than psion and at high levels it's retarded broke.  Fuck Erudite.

lqtm.  Changed build, realise diamond dragon's ability bonuses don't mean jack in metamorphosis, and looked at the initiate to find out it gives you hp, base attack, and skill points. :thumb
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 11:23:12 PM by dark_hound »

dark_samuari

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 11:15:25 PM »
As it is for mixing totemist with a psionic class why don't you go with an ardent? Not only are you going to be going with wisdom (which thematically works possibly better) but by using the variants offered up by Mind Eye's you can arrange your own mantles (as long as they thematically work).

And for the Erudite, I never argued that the class was mechanically sound or balanced. But speaking from a pure power perspective it sits with the tier 1's.

Negative Zero

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 11:34:05 PM »
As it is for mixing totemist with a psionic class why don't you go with an ardent? Not only are you going to be going with wisdom (which thematically works possibly better) but by using the variants offered up by Mind Eye's you can arrange your own mantles (as long as they thematically work).

And there's also the trick of using Practiced Manifester to get higher level powers due to the poorly-worded Powers Known for Ardents.

The Lurker

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 12:38:23 AM »
And for the Erudite, I never argued that the class was mechanically sound or balanced. But speaking from a pure power perspective it sits with the tier 1's.
And you'd be wrong.

@dark_hound: Ardent is a bit funky, but if you can make your own mantles (or go through the trouble to cherry pick mantles to get the important powers you want), it's better than psion.  Medium BAB, better HD, mantle powers are basically in line with bonus feats, and wisdom helps your will save.  Not as many skill points or feats, but psionic feats aren't that big of a deal anyways (you'd want link power, psionic meditation, and that's just about it).  For feats, there's not a whole lot to it.  Knowledge devotion if you think you can pimp the checks, link power+psionic meditation for quicken lite with hustle, expanded knowledge depending on what powers you want, shock trooper, etc.

dark_samuari

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Re: Soul manifester (please help)
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2009, 12:44:49 AM »
So dark_hound, with 8-12 additional team mates you might do well to pick a specific niche for your character to focus on. Where do you see the character excelling?

And for the Erudite, I never argued that the class was mechanically sound or balanced. But speaking from a pure power perspective it sits with the tier 1's.
And you'd be wrong.

And I may ask you to elaborate but that would be well... appropriate.