Why each class is in its tier.

[snakeman830]

Agreed at least on the new Monk entry (Dark Moon Disciple).  Not so sure on the Barbarian entry Lion Totem makes him better at charging, yes, but he's still better than anyone else even without it.  Why?  Because he can survive a counter-attack better than anyone else.

Illiteracy as far as I know doesn't just go away for taking levels else where (FAQ covers this I believe).

And idk on that survivability part at all really. +100HP is ALL the Barb has working for him. The lower Tier Paladin has spells, a mount, better saves and not to mention deals a heck of a lot more damage on five decently chosen attacks. And why talk default Paladin vs AFCed Barb here?

You brought up the ACF, I was talking the default barbarian (which you conviniently edited out of the quote).  So default paladin vs. default barbarian is what should be discussed.  SotAO is well known to be a Tier 4.

Also, Improved Toughness would, at best, cut the difference to 80, not 60.  80hp is still a pretty wide margin here, and that's before you figure in that most counter-attacks will be full attacks, which will amplify the effects of the Barbarian's DR (so we're back up to a 100 hit point advantage on average).  The DR is small, but you can't write it off entirely because of that.  The Barbarian is simply the best at charging tricks.  What can the Paladin really pull off that the barb can't in that area?  A few powerful attacks against certian foes?  Okay...  Mount difference is easily solved for about 200 gold (give or take, depending on specifics) and a Barbarian can use a Lance just as well as anyone else.  The Barbarian still remains dealing a few more points of damage and being more accurate than anyone else.  So yes, the Default Barbarian with equal optimization will outshine any of the Tier 5 or 4 classes in charging, even many of the Tier 3 and 2.  Funny thing, this sounds EXACTLY LIKE Tier 4.

Now, when we DO work ACF's into the mix, the Barbarian remains ahead because nobody else gets Pounce, which means more attacks that still deal more damage.

[Midnight_v]

Pheh. Who actually uses the actual rules? That's just silly.

Right?  

. Shar is the deity of dark places, where you will hang out. Also he has a sense of humor and... Oh is this the reason you hate him?

Shar's a female, sadly I know more about what you're talking about than you do...
and you're being a fuckwit.

Here's how:

And this is even worse. You're not even arguing the Barbarian Monk is good, you're more arguing that this other ACF is good.

Bravo there. . . exactly as planned. . .  


Btw...[spoiler]even if someone pulls an asshole move and says ferocity doesn't count as rage for rage feats etc..(which can totally happen, as the way its written it replaces rage, and isn't frenzy, so now extra rage etc...)
Barbarian doesn't need that other Alternate class feature, when I first discovered it I was using Instantaneous Rage + Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command[/spoiler]

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Edited out the bolded part from my post and I digged where I got told this thing w/ Sanctum Arcane Fusion. "When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know." Arcane Fusion, being a 5th-level spell, can't be chosen here. Sanctum Arcane Fusion is not a known spell.

It would be if you had Arcane Preparation. It just needs to take up a spell slot; you don't even have to cast it.

Assuming you mean Arcane Preparation from CAr, I don't get how this works. Could you elaborate, please?

Since it's now a spell known (as it's in a prepared slot, with metamagic attached), you should be able to cast it appropriately for this purpose.

I think.

Uh, no.

Sanctum only triggers when the spell gets cast.  If you have a Sanctum Fireball prepared, it's third level no matter where you're standing - if you burn it for arcane strike, for example, you'd deal 3d4 damage.  Now, after you've actually started casting it the level changes.

[SorO_Lost]

Also, Improved Toughness would, at best, cut the difference to 80, not 60. 

PA & IM-Bull Rush, that's two feats, two Improved Toughness, 20HP per, 40 total. See also below.

The DR is small, but you can't write it off entirely because of that.

Up until level 13, Adamantine simply does the job. The difference of 2 points is 20 levels in Barbarian vs 1,500 gold. I suppose I could mention the Iron Ward line of Crystals to, despite only working for ten attacks per day, they can give DR 5/- for 8k.

The Barbarian is simply the best at charging tricks.  What can the Paladin really pull off that the barb can't in that area?  A few powerful attacks against certian foes?  Okay...  Mount difference is easily solved for about 200 gold (give or take, depending on specifics) and a Barbarian can use a Lance just as well as anyone else.  The Barbarian still remains dealing a few more points of damage and being more accurate than anyone else.  So yes, the Default Barbarian with equal optimization will outshine any of the Tier 5 or 4 classes in charging, even many of the Tier 3 and 2.  Funny thing, this sounds EXACTLY LIKE Tier 4.

*sigh*

The difference is a maximum of 8 str (mighty rage, level 20) which in turn is a mere 4 points. Funny, the weapon focus of fighters (including mastery) gives +4/+6 meaning the Fighter's offense is just as accurate and apparently since 4 points is such a huge Tier breaking about, uber wtf pwn more damaging too. Btw, turns out Improved Toughness is a Fighter Bonus Feat. So if the Fighter takes the same feats as the Barbarian in his HD slots, and spends 5 feats on the Weapon Focus line, he has 6 left for IM-Toughness which comes out to 120 HP. This why-in-the-hell-didn't-you-take-better-feats Fighter out damage and out last the Barbarian under the effects of Mighty Rage before Mighty Rage even comes into play.

That Paladin, he gains +20(or +40 with a spell or +60 with charging or +80 both) against 1/3 of the Alignments, an in a good game against about 50% of his foes which at four encounters per day means at least two encounters the Paladin is, again since 4 points is a measure of Tier breakage, a fracking god of melee descending form haven and smiting the wicked with lightning and thunder. The Barbarian can buy a mount yes, no Ride access so we're talking CC ranks to catch up. Also his ride isn't as powerful as the Paladins. And while the Barbarian sports +100 HP of the Pally, the Paladin is capable of healing him self prior to dipping into who owns what. Since Shock Trooper is effectively the nearly the highest point Feat wise of charge optimization, it wouldn't be a stretch at all to say the Paladin picks up Battle Blessing for his spellcasting. This opens up spells at a moment's notice. Favored of the Martyr for instance grants immunity to multiple lock down traits that would flat out prevent a Barbarian from acting, not to mention if you look into POA or asking for Polymorph it can almost grant damage immunity so screw HP. Rhino's Charge (by default a swift action) even grants an additional charge multiplier, so against none-Evil targets the Paladin dealing up to a quintuple of damage vs the at best quadruple of the mounted lance using Barbarian. Wait, I see where this is going. It's Wizard vs Fighter all over again. +4 damage > 4th level spells, right...

No, the Barbarian isn't the best at charging. Maybe the Lion Totem can give them a run for their money, but the Barbarian can't.

Now, when we DO work ACF's into the mix, the Barbarian remains ahead because nobody else gets Pounce, which means more attacks that still deal more damage.

As I drew attention do, ACF get there own listing. And as I mentioned prior to bashing the Barb for being the crap that he is, the Lion Totem could stay at Tier 4. Sure I'm harping things like Pounce is buyable/racial/POA/etc. which when coupled with Rage is buyable and cheap following things like Fighter/Paladin are superior does pretty much sound like that Barb really belongs somewhere around the lower end of 5. And that's all probably true, but I didn't start out that way and it hasn't become my goal quite yet. You are instead allowing and helping showcases to be presented of lower Tiers out preforming the Barbarian with less effort and also giving me the ideas that even Lion Totem won't cut it.

So default paladin vs. default barbarian is what should be discussed.  SotAO is well known to be a Tier 4.

Tiers at best note ACF differences and SotAO is a feat which seems a little odd there.  Grilled doesn't have SotAO, Dark Moon, or even Lion Totem listed. And if it were up to Midnight they never would. I think he to Barbs what Giacamole is to Monks.

Shar's a female, sadly I know more about what you're talking about than you do...
and you're being a fuckwit.

Brilliant. I am convinced. Calling a fuck wit is a valid point and you have taken home the win. Have a cookie dumbass.

Thanks however for reminding me of the very last Barbarian trick. The triple feat investment of Instantaneous Intimidating rage and Imperious Command. It's not that everyone can't do this. Buy some Fearsome armor for that 200gp mount and let him Intimidate off a Move Action and burn his Standard moving you about. It's the Free Action once per encounter attempt to impose a one round Fear lock down on a group of closely knit foes. You or your semi-intelligent mount using Fearsome can sustain the fear lock for multiple rounds but can't break Initiative to do it. But in the end does the one specific half build truly kick an entire class up a Tier or as JaronK's Tiers for D&D (what this thread is based off of) explains no this single optimized half build doesn't single handedly change things.

You know, I'm still comparing the Barb to a lower Tier and still showcasing them as better Chargers. They also have their areas of expert tricks (like the Lockdown build based on the Fighter class) that stand on the same ground if not better than Intimidating though Rage. Do you realize that of T4, where you guys are convinced the Barb belongs, are better? Guess what, none of real T4 classes are focused on word mangling good at their job to mean focus on one single aspect of one type of action in one type of encounter as the reason they are there. They are there because they are just plain better and it has nothing to do with focus. Rogue/Warlock sport out of combat tricks, area debuffing, utility, while still maintaining over kill. The Warmage blows shit up and Contingency(bite me) lets him do stuff like No Action Evard's Black Tentacles of Fell Fright out of boredom. Hexblade trades that +4 damage to Cha to Saves, Mettle, Polymorph, saveless debuff, and some other fun stuff. The fingerless Adapt and his pokemon hunt dragons for sport and the Spelltheif is too busy talking about walking into the Wizard's Maw of Chaos right before it ends to safely pack it up for the next encounter. Even the Ranger can pick up Shock Troop and run around using a Lance on his free Pet producing nearly the same offensive results of the Barbarian, then he can walk into a tree and teleport a dozen miles away before healing him self and stealthy tracking his next target with minimal effort. None of these classes single handedly rely on one easily replicate offense as the reason they are there.

[Bozwevial]

Also, Improved Toughness would, at best, cut the difference to 80, not 60. 

PA & IM-Bull Rush, that's two feats, two Improved Toughness, 20HP per, 40 total. See also below.

Can't take Improved Toughness more than once.

[Bill Bisco: Eloquent Elf]

Edited out the bolded part from my post and I digged where I got told this thing w/ Sanctum Arcane Fusion. "When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know." Arcane Fusion, being a 5th-level spell, can't be chosen here. Sanctum Arcane Fusion is not a known spell.

It would be if you had Arcane Preparation. It just needs to take up a spell slot; you don't even have to cast it.

Assuming you mean Arcane Preparation from CAr, I don't get how this works. Could you elaborate, please?

Since it's now a spell known (as it's in a prepared slot, with metamagic attached), you should be able to cast it appropriately for this purpose.

I think.

Uh, no.

Sanctum only triggers when the spell gets cast.  If you have a Sanctum Fireball prepared, it's third level no matter where you're standing - if you burn it for arcane strike, for example, you'd deal 3d4 damage.  Now, after you've actually started casting it the level changes.

it's only sanctum because you need a 0 modifier for arcane thesis to reduce the metamagic adjustment to -1 which alters the spell level.  The feat chosen could be cooperative or invisible spell for all that it matters

[Midnight_v]

Shar's a female, sadly I know more about what you're talking about than you do...
and you're being a fuckwit.

Brilliant. I am convinced

Well good. See how easy that was? I'm glad we could clear that up. 

I think he to Barbs what Giacamole is to Monks.

All this time, I thought I was to barbs what you were to monks? 

 Seriously though, I thought you wanted to make your argument that Monks were infact 1 tier higher because of the 1 acf?
Which is why I led you to saying...

And this is even worse. You're not even arguing the Barbarian Monk is good, you're more arguing that this other ACF is good

I see though you want Dark Moon monk to be it's own slot and lion totem to be its own slot. Similar to how dungeon crasher is.

I don't like the idea of breaking down each class into its constituent parts unless there's 1. Signifigant use and 2. The acf does something that Radically changes how the class is supposed to be played.
Binder does this, from what I'm told w/the summon monster vestige, I don't have enough info about but I'm told it does. Though honestly I don't know if those online vestiges are as popular as say... dungeon crashing fighter, or even font of inspiration unlimited factotums.

At that point it seems you're talking more about what you can do with optimization, than the general strength of the class which is what the tiers is more about.
 I also don't see "abilities can be replaced with a class feature" and "The badger has rage" as being very important to what tier a class is. Most non spell casting classes have key class features that can be emulated by monsters, as well as items that can let someone be at "Example Class" lite.
All that being said... if you badger hard enough you might be able to get someone to agree and get them to actually amend the tier system I did it w/psywar *shrug* I don't think its really that crucial to gameplay, it seems more important for interwebz arguments. Good luck with that.

[SorO_Lost]

I don't like the idea of breaking down each class into its constituent parts unless there's 1. Signifigant use and 2. The acf does something that Radically changes how the class is supposed to be played.

The three things I'm hitting on.
A. Barbarian isn't T4.
B. Lion Totem deserves it's own entry.
C. Dark Moon Disciple deserves it's own entry.

For A, the claim is he is T4 is based on pretty much that he is the best charger, that is his claim is power and not versatility. With minimal effort three melee based T5 classes are better and in turn can obtain nearly ALL of the Barbarian's class features meaning the Barbarian has ZERO claim in terms of power. The only two features that easily replicated or out done are the easy of access to Pounce (Lion Totem) which I've brought up as being it's own entry, and it's Demoralize which while it has it's benefits it has it's downsides too and it isn't so high over other options to be it's own thing nor is tiers based on optimization of a build towards a general set up. My last post I touched on not only how T4 classes are not dependent on a single claim of power but in fact can make such a claim while being versatile.

You, rather then really saying anything useful whine about who you pray to, call names, synonymously refer to Lion Totem Barbarian when I am speaking of the Standard Barbarian, claim I'm promoting the Monk by bashing the Barbarian, and just plain in general fuck about. Look at your new approach, rather than posting a rebuttal you've picked a new fight: Lion Totem and Dark Moon should not be listed as only ACF that radically change how you play a class and and give significant abilities in which you cite Online Visages and Dungeoncrasher shouldn't be listed either. In your poor attempts to come up with a rebuttal you are picking new fights and (hopefully) no one is dumb enough to listen to you. If you want to run down some tangent about how AFCs should not be listed, hey w/e. Next week you should post in the Tiers for PrCs thread telling them to shut down and go home.

Also, on the mention of optimization. That is a fact isn't it? None of my Fighter/Paladin examples mention using Rage granting effects, none mention items (well the quintuple via is acknowledging items, but it's point is the Paladin's choice in in spell can give this), and I do expect the Fighter to pick up his near exclusive line of Feats which meant rather than listing a dozen feats better than having a bit more HP, I mentioned you could simply take this feat X times and come up with a higher total, IE 6 feats are more valuable than the Barbarian's none-Class Feature defensive traits over the Fighter. They are not optimized examples, and they are better than the Barbarian. and they are ranked lower than the Barbarian. And the classes ranked the same as the Barbarian are a hell of a lot more powerful and versatile making them outshine the Barbarian in every way like he doesn't belong. Maybe Lion Totem does, maybe it does not. Clearly the standard Barbarian doesn't.

[awaken DM golem]

So Psionic classes are lower tier because idiot DM's think that Psionics are Overpowered?

YES !!


(my kitty avatar loves this one)

[Sinfire Titan]

For A, the claim is he is T4 is based on pretty much that he is the best charger, that is his claim is power and not versatility.

The thing is, the Barbarian has class features that let him do something outside of combat (scouting and trapfinding, thanks both to Survival and Listen being a class skill). He has better skills than the Fighter, and actual class features (although they are largely minor abilities anyway). He's a very low Tier 4, but he is capable of doing things that Tier 4 classes can do without being optimized for those purposes.


Trapsmasher is amazing, BTW.

[zugschef]

Trapsmasher is amazing, BTW.

which is another acf.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Edited out the bolded part from my post and I digged where I got told this thing w/ Sanctum Arcane Fusion. "When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know." Arcane Fusion, being a 5th-level spell, can't be chosen here. Sanctum Arcane Fusion is not a known spell.

It would be if you had Arcane Preparation. It just needs to take up a spell slot; you don't even have to cast it.

Assuming you mean Arcane Preparation from CAr, I don't get how this works. Could you elaborate, please?

Since it's now a spell known (as it's in a prepared slot, with metamagic attached), you should be able to cast it appropriately for this purpose.

I think.

Uh, no.

Sanctum only triggers when the spell gets cast.  If you have a Sanctum Fireball prepared, it's third level no matter where you're standing - if you burn it for arcane strike, for example, you'd deal 3d4 damage.  Now, after you've actually started casting it the level changes.

it's only sanctum because you need a 0 modifier for arcane thesis to reduce the metamagic adjustment to -1 which alters the spell level.  The feat chosen could be cooperative or invisible spell for all that it matters

Arcane thesis got errataed so you can't net a negative level.

[Midnight_v]

In your poor attempts to come up with a rebuttal you are picking new fights and (hopefully) no one is dumb enough to listen to you.

Right I shouldn't have been foolish enough to listen to what you say about the monk, I forgotten you were in the giacomo crowd for quite some time. 
So you are entitled to keep nerd raging in my direction, but its a wast of your time as I'm...

Moving on...

Trapsmasher is amazing, BTW.

which is another acf.

Well this is kinda the thing right here, there are sooo many acfs it silly to separate them from the base classes, in someways, unless the thing changes the class signifigantly.
  A lion totem barbarian is doing the same thing as the barbarian, even without pounce the barbarian is effective at its gimmicks (charging and intimidating), and as Sinfire states, has some uses out of combat.
Having the alternate class features at hand:
Various Rages, TrapSmashing, Streetfighter, aren't great diversions from what the barb is capable of doing anyway, so most of them don't increase the efficacy tremendously anyway. The difference between a barbarian shocktrooping w/valorus weapons etc is affected by pounce by upping the damage potential but again, thats not what its about is it? 

[Jackinthegreen]

Perhaps we should make a Tier List of class features?

[zugschef]

to be totally honest: for me, out of the box the barbarian is tier 5, too.

compare him to the fighter: sure, the barb has the RRRrrrage, but the fighter has a lot of totally essential feats earlier. shock trooper and combat brute are really feat intensive, and if you'd like steadfast determination, too...

a typical non-human barbarian takes these feats: power attack, improved bullrush, shock trooper.
a fighter could have these feats by level 6: power attack, endurance, steadfast determination, improved bullrush, improved sunder, combat brute, shock trooper.

i really don't think that 2 skillpoints and a better skilllist give the barb the edge...

[SorO_Lost]

The thing is, the Barbarian has class features that let him do something outside of combat (scouting and trapfinding, thanks both to Survival and Listen being a class skill). He has better skills than the Fighter, and actual class features (although they are largely minor abilities anyway). He's a very low Tier 4, but he is capable of doing things that Tier 4 classes can do without being optimized for those purposes.

Trapsmasher is amazing, BTW.

Trapfinding? Thing is, Listen isn't as good as Spot and Survival isn't all that great once you can forged for food and find north by knowing which direction the sun travels. The Barbarian's skill list doesn't contain Balance, Diplomacy, Hide/Move, Search, Tumble, UMD, etc. Listen can let him know someone is hiding near him, but unlike Spot it can't really negate the miss chance from being hiding. Survival's forging for food is done simply by taking ten, avoiding getting lost is something but it's only DC 15.

I forgotten you were in the giacomo crowd for quite some time.

This is the best you can do? 4chan is more intelligent than you and a hell of a lot more creative.

Perhaps we should make a Tier List of class features?

You know and expansion on that area would be nice. Like the Arcane Swordsage is the next thing on my todo list.

to be totally honest: for me, out of the box the barbarian is tier 5, too.

+1

Recall this isn't some dumb X vs Y like fighter vs Wizard or Monk vs NPCs, sure it's got it's troll but meh. This is a debate on the Barbarian moving clear up into another Tier of play when the Tier below him is better due to a an assumed to always have a certain ACF and the Tier he supposedly stands in most of the classes outshines his maximum potential with hardly any effort.

[zugschef]

Recall this isn't some dumb X vs Y like fighter vs Wizard or Monk vs NPCs, sure it's got it's troll but meh. This is a debate on the Barbarian moving clear up into another Tier of play when the Tier below him is better due to a an assumed to always have a certain ACF and the Tier he supposedly stands in most of the classes outshines his maximum potential with hardly any effort.

i'm really not trying to derail this thread into a silly "versus thread". but it's just obvious to me that a standard barbarian does not contribute significantly more to a party than a standard fighter. as you said, it's just analog to the standard fighter and dungeoncrasher fighter variant.

[SorO_Lost]

Recall this isn't some dumb X vs Y like fighter vs Wizard or Monk vs NPCs, sure it's got it's troll but meh. This is a debate on the Barbarian moving clear up into another Tier of play when the Tier below him is better due to a an assumed to always have a certain ACF and the Tier he supposedly stands in most of the classes outshines his maximum potential with hardly any effort.

i'm really not trying to derail this thread into a silly "versus thread". but it's just obvious to me that a standard barbarian does not contribute significantly more to a party than a standard fighter. as you said, it's just analog to the standard fighter and dungeoncrasher fighter variant.

Actually the +1 was for you, the reminder was for the guy who simply opposes the idea without any reasoning.

[rot42]

Perhaps we should make a Tier List of class features?

Not a bad idea; the good ones are ideally mentioned in the relevant handbooks, but there are many ways to organize information. This could inspire "hey, I never liked class X, but this ACF is really cool" for someone trawling for character ideas. There is what appears to be a pretty complete list of ACFs and substitution levels at http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908. Organized by +2/+1/-1/-2, with everything else assumed not to change the tier of the standard class?

[zugschef]

Actually the +1 was for you, the reminder was for the guy who simply opposes the idea without any reasoning.

yes i got that. i guess, i just wanted to state the obvious. ^^