Author Topic: Need help with my Dwarf  (Read 4218 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Fruchtfliege

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Need help with my Dwarf
« on: July 19, 2009, 11:38:15 AM »

altpersona

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2939
  • BG forum Emperor Ad Litem
    • Altpersona.net
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 11:51:29 AM »
deep warden is your only prestige option?

have you considered druid as melee fighter?
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2009, 11:53:37 AM »
Since you're a Dwarf, why not play a Cleric of Moradin?  With the right application of spells, you could easily out-damage the Barbarian!
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist


Braithwaite

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2009, 12:10:32 PM »

Odd numbers of fighter levels (except for 1) are almost always bad. You never take levels with 0 class features if you can help it. Usually, for a fighter build in core, you want to take 2 or 4 levels of fighter. Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Deepwarden 5 is probably better and should be doable. If you only want Deepwarden 2, look for another prestige class to take, or fill in odd levels with other classes like paladin or barbarian. Fighter 7 is almost always a bad idea, and 6 or 8 aren't much better in core.



There are 3 generally good fighter options. They are Archer, Battlefield Controller, 2 handed power attacker. Archer and 2 handed attacker do enough damage make monsters notice them, Battlefield Controllers (usually trippers) put the monsters in a position so that they can't hit your wizards.

Weapon + Shield fighters are one level down. The AC bonus they get is not usually equal to the damage they give up. Wielding a 2 handed weapon with a buckler is usually superior.

2 weapon fighting is harder because: 1: You are less likely to hit with all of your attacks when you are taking penalties to hit.
2: (and more important) Most of a fighters damage comes from strength bonus + power attack. You get half your str bonus on your off hand weapon, and you can't power attack with it.

example:
A dwarf with 18 Strength and power attacking for 4 wielding a waraxe 2 handed does
1-10 + 6 (strength x1.5 for 2 handing) +8 (power attack x2 for 2 handing) =1-10+14 Average 19.5

A dwarf wielding the same weapon 1 handed with a shield does
1-10 +4 (strength) + 4 (Power Attack) = 1-10+8 Average 12.5 losing 7 damage per hit

A dwarf 2 weapon fighting with waraxe and hand axe does
1-10 +4 (strength) + 4 (Power Attack) = 1-10+8 and 1-6+2 Average 18 IF he hits with both attacks! He is better throwing his hand axe on the ground and swinging the big axe with both hands.

If you really want to 2 weapon fight, something like Rogue 3, Ranger 2, Deepwarden 5 might do better. The TWF numbers come out much better when you throw in sneak attack damage.

But really, for a fighter build, with a barbarian already in your party who I assume is doing big damage with 2 handed fighting, consider something like Improved trip, Exotic weapon spiked chain, Combat reflexes, Power attack.

Edit: My response was assuming that you wanted a fighter. They are correct. A druid 10 or Cleric of Moradin 10 whips almost any fighter as a melee combatant.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 12:13:06 PM by Braithwaite »

Fruchtfliege

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2009, 12:26:19 PM »
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 12:28:41 PM by Fruchtfliege »

j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2009, 12:48:29 PM »
You don't need to be Lawful Good to be a Cleric of Moradin.  Clerics can be one step away on either alignment axis.  Since Moradin is Lawful Good, that gives you three options: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good.
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist


Braithwaite

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2009, 12:54:04 PM »
Moradin is hardly the only option. A dwarf melee cleric could worship Kord, Erythnul, or Hextor just as easily. That is almost the full range of alignments.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2009, 01:03:01 PM »
You might as well take 3 levels of ranger to get the endurance feat for free.

Ranger3/fighter2/deepwarden2/exoticweaponmaster1 (for uncanny blow with the dwarven waraxe)/dwarfparagon3 is a good start.

You also might want to take the steadfast determination feat. It lets you use your con score instead of your wis score for will saves so you can dump your wis score and you won't automanically fail a fort save on a natural 1.

Braithwaite

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2009, 02:15:54 PM »
You might as well take 3 levels of ranger to get the endurance feat for free.

Ranger3/fighter2/deepwarden2/exoticweaponmaster1 (for uncanny blow with the dwarven waraxe)/dwarfparagon3 is a good start.

You also might want to take the steadfast determination feat. It lets you use your con score instead of your wis score for will saves so you can dump your wis score and you won't automanically fail a fort save on a natural 1.

They are mostly core, Ninja. Exotic Weapon master is Complete Warrior, Dwarf Paragon is Unearthed Arcana, Steadfast Determination is PH2 (I think). Thats an uphill struggle for someone who was feeling good that he got his DM to approve one races of stone prestige class.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 02:21:46 PM »
You might as well take 3 levels of ranger to get the endurance feat for free.

Ranger3/fighter2/deepwarden2/exoticweaponmaster1 (for uncanny blow with the dwarven waraxe)/dwarfparagon3 is a good start.

You also might want to take the steadfast determination feat. It lets you use your con score instead of your wis score for will saves so you can dump your wis score and you won't automanically fail a fort save on a natural 1.

They are mostly core, Ninja. Exotic Weapon master is Complete Warrior, Dwarf Paragon is Unearthed Arcana, Steadfast Determination is PH2 (I think). Thats an uphill struggle for someone who was feeling good that he got his DM to approve one races of stone prestige class.

If that's the case then just be a cleric or druid, since the DM believes in the fallacy that core = balanced.

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2009, 02:40:48 PM »
You need at least 2 levels in Ranger, or another class with the same skills, to meet the skill prerequisites for Deepwarden, which are: Climb 5 ranks, Heal 5 ranks, Jump 5 ranks, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks, Survival 5 ranks.

Quote
Druids are powerful casters, melee combatants, and have decent skills all starting from level 1. Arrange your stats as Wis>Con>Int>Dex>Str, and pick up Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Natural Spell, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Claws), Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, though you could get by with just Natural Spell and Toughnessx6

Quote
But as you can see healingabilities might do our group some good.
And iturnintoabearandeatyourfaceoff abilities might be useful too.
Quote
I will ask the GM what he thinks about my doubts (and the fact that I am considering yet another class) and then I will get back to you for more advice.
Well, all groups *need* healing, and someone will have to pick up the slack from the Monk...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 02:51:06 PM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Fruchtfliege

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009, 06:01:16 AM »

Flay Crimsonwind

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1310
  • Watching the World Burn in Magnificence
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2009, 06:10:58 AM »
Hrm... I'd maybe even make Con above strength, if you're planning to at all regain deepwarden (hint: do it)....

Fruchtfliege

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2009, 07:21:11 AM »

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2009, 07:26:23 AM »
Only take the 2 levels needed to get Con to AC, you don't want to lose any more caster levels.
Prestige classes don't count for XP penalties, so no worries there.

"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Paradox

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2009, 08:26:15 AM »
With 10 cleric/2DW/8cleric, that's about the level of a full cleric, but a little toned down due to caster progression.
quote author=Fruchtfliege link=topic=5048.msg170577#msg170577 date=1248168071]
Meaning, how deep should i go into DW and at wich clericlevel.
And then there the XPquestion with dualclassing. Do prestigeclasses count against this?
[/quote]
I don't think 3.5 does dualclassing like 2.0 (because screw you gestalt)
PRCs don't count against it.

Fruchtfliege

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 06:22:32 AM »
That sounds promising :)

Which Feats would you all choose?
Again I only have the PHB and RoS to choose from, so not that great a pool sadly.

Braithwaite

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 10:45:22 AM »
Power Attack (if you plan to melee). Endurance (for Deepwarden). Then, ask your DM some questions. If you take an item crafting feat, will he let you get some of your starting equipment at a discount? Will the campaign allow you time to craft? If the answer to either of those questions is yes, take a craft feat (Wondrous Items, Arms & Armor, or Wands, but not more than one). Will he let you take Leadership (not PHB, but DMG, so still core)? If so, you want a Bard cohort, whose only job is to stand 10 feat behind you and provide you with buffs and heals. Improved Initiative is always good. Extend Spell or Quicken Spell Metamagic feats.

Extra advice since you are new. Unless you like being a healbot (and some people do, even if it isn't always the best option) explain your role to your party before play. Explain that Cleric might mean guy who stands around casting heals in some silly language like halfling or elvish, but that in Dwarfish it means "Badass champion of Moradin". Tell them that you are willing to drop heals if someone is lying on the ground bleeding to death, but in general you are going to be too busy casting Divine Power and laying hurt on enemies. Tell them that you will cure them between fights, (which you will do with your Wand of Cure Light Wounds, not with your spells, unless it is at the end of the day) but that when your Cure Wand runs low, THEY are paying for your next one. If they ask you for in combat heals, refer them to the potions section of the DMG, or tell them to get a healbot as a cohort with the Leadership feat. While this conversation can be awkward, I find that it works better before play, when they have the option of buying items to deal with it, rather than after the first combat when they are bitching about where their heals were.

Also, read the cleric handbook when you get a chance. It will answer many of your questions, and give you good advice about spells and tactics.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 10:51:09 AM by Braithwaite »

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 03:07:47 PM »
I suggest that as a dwarf you be a cleric that worships Thor. Strive for Gold Dwarf (DMG) which gives a dex penalty rather than a cha penalty.

Core only cleric is a great option, no doubt. Just watch your spell expenditure and buff times.

Fruchtfliege

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Need help with my Dwarf
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2009, 11:15:05 AM »