Author Topic: WLD: Most balanced campaign?  (Read 38448 times)

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Solo

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 10:57:12 PM »
By RAW, you get your spells when you level up.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 10:59:42 PM »
Oh, and the bardic knowledge fiated into not working is also pretty stupid.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 12:03:39 AM »
First things first, ropetrick won't work since every spell that relies upon extradimensional spaces flat out won't work in WLD.
So dump-statting Str isn't as free of pain as it is usually.

It's still pretty pain free, since I don't think I've ever had a Wizard carry more than 15 pounds ever, not counting +1 Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt, which of course you aren't getting in WLD anyway, so who cares.

By RAW, a spell component pouch never runs out, but I for one haven't met any DM that actually allow that. YMMV.

When the book mentions useful skills to possess to repair items, replace lost pieces and such matters, I find it hard to belive they haven't included spell components into that. Let's face it, normal campaign senarios won't delve into the fact that sooner or later the party will need to repair their shoes (regardless of how that would be done, Mending or not) and neither does it matter itself with components. WLD is another beast entierly. Go figure, most modules aren't made to involve the PC's for 2 years straight in game.
Once again, YMMV.

I haven't ever met anyone who doesn't allow that. Not to mention I leveled all the way to level 2 and I had already killed a Wizard and taken his spell component pouch. How he managed to have one if you mysteriously run out is beyond me (he of course had one because you don't run out). So it's not like it's hard to replenish.

The level of attention to details your DM possess pretty much rules this entierly.

You mean the level of attention to rules that your DM possess right? Because following the rules is generally something I find useful in a DM. Maybe it's the, not a second edition grognard, in me.

The thing about wizards getting hosed is the fact that those spells they gain every level, they gain from studies.
Sure, those doesn't cost anything to inscribe into their spellbooks, but it is still gained through studies and available resource materials. The authours mention this, that there's little inside WLD that gives the opportunity to do so.

The thing about Wizards not being screwed is that it isn't gained through studies and available resources, but instead through research. Which of course doesn't really require anything more than manipulating arcane energy, which, hey, Wizards can do.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 12:07:13 AM »
"What do you think I'm getting more experienced at?  Bending the raw fabric of reality to my very will, that's what.  So what I term "research" you plebeians may superficially describe as 'blasting the hell out of, and then back into, those kobolds'."
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2009, 12:14:12 AM »
Sorcerer. Eschew Materials. Boom.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 12:28:03 AM »
Wow, is the dark chaos feat shuffle useful here.  After all, there's a level cap in place for the zones, so spells that cost XP aren't anything more than a slap on the wrist.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 05:58:25 AM »
What is this WLD? Sounds interesting.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 06:36:26 AM »
There's also the warning against allowing PCs to learn entangle, web, and similar spells - which, combined with the suggested restrictions on spellbooks and summoning, pretty much hoses magical battlefield control, which in turn makes encounters more challenging.

I haven't played WLD - there's too many interesting adventures that I want to run, and no DM I know is really into running modules.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 08:07:04 AM »
What is this WLD? Sounds interesting.

It's the World's Largest Dungeon.  It boasts every monster from the SRD and takes the PCs from level 1-20 and possibly beyond.  Most people I know who've played it loved the idea, but hated the actual gameplay.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 11:24:01 AM »
Played through 5 floors of this dungeon, made it to lvl 11. Incredibly fun, dm limited us to Core for classes and prestige, and any 3.5 book for feats. Any race and sub levels we wanted also. Very challenging. Originally we had a warlock with us but shatter at will got him killed for being gay and started the core class rules. Party was Sorc, Barb, Rogue (feat varient), and a cleric. At times it was very very hard especially if a member didn't show up for the game. Most of the things that killed us off were negative levels and poison (you get attacked, congrats in 3 days you die and your head comes off). At low level we didn't have a way to remove this. If you could get an artificer here then the game would be steam rolled.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2009, 12:30:37 PM »
So, wow I posted this less than 24 hours ago:
Obviously multiclassing penalties are silly... a druid still wildshapes, still has an animal companion, still has Wild Empathy (Can you say pokemans?) still has Shilleghlae (It's just a matter of dumping Dex and pumping strength at low levels), can take the shapeshift variant if he wants
Multiclassing penalties is just for added harshness :)
Wildshaping requires familiarity, but without summoning you get into yucky knowledge checks.
Wild Empathy is useful? Shilleghlae? Explain. Shapeshift variant, I can see - but it is a nerf ;)
Most balanced, sure it's one of them... but Tier 5s will still suck hard.
They will still be moderately useful for lazy dips, but yeah in a harsh campaign few will actually play tier 5's
Well, Wizards still get their base of 2 spells known per level, meaning that they get at least 4 spells known of each spell level (unless they want more of a lower level). Sorcerers need 8 hours of sleep, just like Wizards do. Even a Warforged Sorcerer needs to rest for 8 hours, just as a Warforged Wizard would.
I must confess I never play arcane casters (it feels so cheap :lol) but I do NOT see anything like that here.
I hate the WLD. ... they went and said that you can't take 10s and 20s in this dungeon.
The take 10 and 20 thing wasn't in my OP :). Yes I wouldn't include that rule.
So, more accurately, Crusaders start looking really good. Or Tomb-Tainted parties.
Fine with me.
Incorporeality, is normally incredible, but the WLD makes it even better. Wait a second... summons stick around but are insane, IIRC.  Dread necromancers can cast summon undead and just rebuke/command them.
Nothing new about that :)
The point is that Dread Necros (And Clerics) can turn that supposed punishment into an infinite source of free minions....
spell component pouch contains everything you ever need from level 1
d4 HD and better con than most characters, also, really easy to stay back.
Collegiate Wizard gives enough spells for any Wizard I've ever had.

Not that any of this even remotely addresses Druid the Greatest of Greats or Cleric The Second Greatest of Greats.
Remember my OP used the 'summons don't work' variant, not the 'free insane minions forever' one. Where is collegiate wizard again? There are other nerfs for cleric and druid... I'll add on my original notes into the OP
First things first, ropetrick won't work since every spell that relies upon extradimensional spaces flat out won't work in WLD....normal campaign senarios won't delve into the fact that sooner or later the party will need to repair their shoes (regardless of how that would be done
The thing about wizards getting hosed is the fact that those spells they gain every level, they gain from studies.
Sure, those doesn't cost anything to inscribe into their spellbooks, but it is still gained through studies and available resource materials. The authours mention this, that there's little inside WLD that gives the opportunity to do so.
Good catches on the nerfs :). Basically if you have no physical way to research... your hosed.
Collegate Wizard pretty much solves the Wizard issue.  Geometer helps too, if it comes to that, though having time to do research is hard.
Please explain... I can't find the former and the later seemed to only automatically give 1 spell...
Wow, is the dark chaos feat shuffle useful here.  After all, there's a level cap in place for the zones, so spells that cost XP aren't anything more than a slap on the wrist.
Eww. No, but psychic reformation would work... if you ever got sleep :)
"What do you think I'm getting more experienced at?  Bending the raw fabric of reality to my very will, that's what.  So what I term "research" you plebeians may superficially describe as 'blasting the hell out of, and then back into, those kobolds'."
I don't know if that's an honest use of the research rules...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 12:32:44 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2009, 01:51:33 PM »
Collegiate wizard is a feat from CA (or was it CM?) that was in a funny place, not the normal feat chapter, that you can only take at level 1, but gives you twice the normal number of spells learned for free per level. It's amazingly good if you can fit it in, since it more-or-less makes you not need to research and copy spells. 8 known per spell level is all you really need.

I hadn't seen the restrictions on Web and whatnot. Basically, the designers set up the ultimate Kick-In-The-Door and fight campaign, and any deviation from that is a Bad Thing.

If you're looking at long, campaign-length dungeon crawls, I've DM'd return to the temple of elemental evil, and own the Banewarrens and Castle Whiterock. All three are superior to WLD, in my humble opinion - they manage to challenge PCs in interesting ways without resorting to houserules. I'm planning on running Whiterock in the near future, it's simply awesome as a skeleton for a campaign (some stuff needs modification and I need to layer it into my ongoing campaign world story).

Kaelik

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2009, 01:53:49 PM »
Wizards[spoiler]pretty much never get any spells above level 1, nor could they get the uninterrupted sleep/trance required for spellcasting. They aren't gauranteed an upgraded familiar and the feats only help for another class.[/spoiler]

You still don't seem to grasp how research works. You get those 4 spells per spell level, more with collegiate Wizard. It never says, "Wizards need a lab to do research!" Sorcerers do research the same way Wizards do. The only thing needed for research is some time, and over the course of a level in the WLD, you get more than enough free time.

Also, you do get your sleep, and any statement that you don't is a joke. You close some doors and go to sleep. That's seriously all. You as a DM cannot send an attack every hour of every day without killing off the Fighters a long time before the Wizards.

Druid[spoiler]The you-can't-summon effect means your spontaneous casting (which you won't ever have the peace and quiet for) is useless. This also means you can't summon creatures in order to be familiar enough with them for wildshaping. Looks like you will need to be the sub-par shapeshifting variant :(. Your other class features aren't that great for dungeon crawling. Woodland stride! ... oh wait.[/spoiler]

Once again, the spontaneous part of casting is small loss. And you still get your prepared casting, since it takes 1 hour and 1 hour only to get all your spells back.

You can also Wildshape anything you can make a knowledge check for, which is anything with your HD.

Clerics[spoiler]Your spells still need meditation. Turn undead and domain abilities will still work but alone they make you down a few tiers.[/spoiler]

Once again, 1 hour of prayer. That's it, That's all you need to get all your spells.

Archivists[spoiler]I can research any spell! Oh nevermind. I'll be over here now.[/spoiler]

Archivists are limited to Cleric Spells unless they have a good DM in WLD, which you are going out of your way to not be. Just be a Cleric.

Artificers[spoiler]You also need peace and quiet. But you can still craft... kinda. Any help with them would be appreciated CO, since I never bothered to learn their exceptions. Unlike the rest this class is useful after level 1 - all the way up to 5 without casting.[/spoiler]

Um, 1) Artificers without casting are still good. 2) They still get casting. 3) Artificers are the best possible WLD class, because they can easily craft, and easily turn all the crappy stuff you find into good stuff. They also have 3/4 BAB Trapfinding and a great skill class. Better in combat and better out of combat than a rogue.

Something about preventing Entangle Web and "similar spells"

My guess, it doesn't say similar spells. Of course it doesn't mean, all BC anyway, it means entangle web and other situational spells that stop being situational in WLD (IE you need plants for entangle, no plants. You need walls for Web, oh crap, always walls.). But it doesn't matter because Glitterdust is also awesome and nothing stops EBT or anything else you choose to use.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 06:15:12 PM by Kaelik »

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2009, 02:58:06 PM »
I played it, its pretty unbearable. Aside from it being a big pile of steaming houserules/fiat.

It also has a poor story. Imo.  :banghead My friends payed 99.00 for that thing.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2009, 03:54:17 PM »
Well, Wizards still get their base of 2 spells known per level, meaning that they get at least 4 spells known of each spell level (unless they want more of a lower level). Sorcerers need 8 hours of sleep, just like Wizards do. Even a Warforged Sorcerer needs to rest for 8 hours, just as a Warforged Wizard would.
I must confess I never play arcane casters (it feels so cheap :lol) but I do NOT see anything like that here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2009, 09:25:13 PM »
On research:  you don't need research to gain your spells when leveling up.  It is however a great way to get new spells when you don't have access to scrolls of what you want.  If you look at the section on researching new spells, it gives you guidelines on what you can make, but these guidelines boil down to "it should be close to existing spells" and if you read it carefully you realize it allows you to duplicate any existing spell.

Thus, a Wizard with Collegate Wizard but with no scroll access at all can still get 8 spells per spell level (more level 1 spells) and then research a few more as needed, given some downtime.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2009, 03:59:03 PM »
First things first, ropetrick won't work since every spell that relies upon extradimensional spaces flat out won't work in WLD.
So dump-statting Str isn't as free of pain as it is usually.

It's still pretty pain free, since I don't think I've ever had a Wizard carry more than 15 pounds ever, not counting +1 Mithril Twilight Chain Shirt, which of course you aren't getting in WLD anyway, so who cares.

It was more a comment on rope trick not working than dumpstatting Str, but I get the feeling you understood that.

By RAW, a spell component pouch never runs out, but I for one haven't met any DM that actually allow that. YMMV.

When the book mentions useful skills to possess to repair items, replace lost pieces and such matters, I find it hard to belive they haven't included spell components into that. Let's face it, normal campaign senarios won't delve into the fact that sooner or later the party will need to repair their shoes (regardless of how that would be done, Mending or not) and neither does it matter itself with components. WLD is another beast entierly. Go figure, most modules aren't made to involve the PC's for 2 years straight in game.
Once again, YMMV.

I haven't ever met anyone who doesn't allow that. Not to mention I leveled all the way to level 2 and I had already killed a Wizard and taken his spell component pouch. How he managed to have one if you mysteriously run out is beyond me (he of course had one because you don't run out). So it's not like it's hard to replenish.

The level of attention to details your DM possess pretty much rules this entierly.

You mean the level of attention to rules that your DM possess right? Because following the rules is generally something I find useful in a DM. Maybe it's the, not a second edition grognard, in me.

Usually, you don't cast enough spells that require the same type of material component that you find yourself lacking them. I haven't. You can just shop for supplies next time you're in a town. Usually, you don't need to think about mending your boots, or patching your coat, or even taking a shit. Not many DM's focus on details to the point where these things needs to be considered.

However, WLD isn't a usual dungeon. In-game it's somewhat around 2 years IIRC. The book mentions that the PCs gear and equipment will eventually need to be fixed. If you are in a dungeon for 2 years, in Kord knows how many fights, it stands to reason that eventually you'll run short/out on some of the material components. Web wouldn't be a problem, since cobwebs should be in abundance, but how many sulphuric-encoated pieces of bat turd d'you think you can find in there? ;) (not that you should pick Fireball over Web, but you get the point). It comes down to how much your DM concerns himself with this. I don't have a hard time seeing an DM with attention to detail give you a circumstance penalty to your damage with your longsword if you haven't sharpened it for a week. YMMV.

The thing about wizards getting hosed is the fact that those spells they gain every level, they gain from studies.
Sure, those doesn't cost anything to inscribe into their spellbooks, but it is still gained through studies and available resource materials. The authours mention this, that there's little inside WLD that gives the opportunity to do so.

The thing about Wizards not being screwed is that it isn't gained through studies and available resources, but instead through research. Which of course doesn't really require anything more than manipulating arcane energy, which, hey, Wizards can do.

Quote from: Kaelik
Sorcerers do research the same way Wizards do. The only thing needed for research is some time, and over the course of a level in the WLD, you get more than enough free time.

Quote from: WLD page 12
Because the PCs are going to be underground for about 2 game years, with no way of returning to the surface, it's difficult for wizards fo justify spells "appearing" in their spellbooks. Sorcerers, druids, and clerics all draw their power from a less tangible source, but a wizard has no new sources of magic.

It boils down to how you like to interpretate the in-game procedure (purely rp-wise) of how a wizard gets more spells.
By RAW it's no problem, but by RAW you heal damage when drowning if you're at lower than -1 Hp when it happens.
See my point?

Quote from: Kaelik
Also, you do get your sleep, and any statement that you don't is a joke. You close some doors and go to sleep. That's seriously all. You as a DM cannot send an attack every hour of every day without killing off the Fighters a long time before the Wizards.

+2. It's not impossible to sleep inside WLD. If your DM makes it impossible to sleep, he/she's a moron.

And regarding Web/Entangle

Quote from: WLD page 12
One last thing, spells like entangle and web are devastatingly powerful in a dungeon. We've made sure the bad guys don't have them. DMs should do the same with the PCs

Of course, I think this is silly. You allready need what advantages you can get.

That WLD limits Clerics just isn't so. There's nothing in and of itself in the module that makes clerics have a harder time, unlike the afformentioned wizards.

Druids... well, it depends on how anal you want to get.

Quote from:  WLD, page 15
If you think wizards have it bad in the Dungeon, imagine communing with nature. With the exception of Regions H, K, and L (and maybe Region O), there isn't much for druids to do. Sure, the can cast barkskin and have limited healing powers, but tha are the odds of finding an animal companion underground?
We could dance around the point, but instead we recommend that DMs simple ban druid PCs. After all, it's called the World's Largest Dungeon. You knew the score when you bought it. We won't apologize for its shortage of picnic areas. The final, however, decision rest in your hands


I find this interpretation both one-dimensional and boring, not to mention that the authors seem to have no concept over how good a Druid is.

Artificers are excellent for WLD, quite marvelously excellent. Provided that your DM judges that you can improvise enough to use the stuff you find to make items. He/she should, but who knows?

Archivists are in the same situation as the wizard, go figure.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2009, 07:13:40 PM »
Quote
It boils down to how you like to interpretate the in-game procedure (purely rp-wise) of how a wizard gets more spells.
By RAW it's no problem, but by RAW you heal damage when drowning if you're at lower than -1 Hp when it happens.
See my point?
Not in that example. The text for drowning makes no suggestion that you go up, iirc.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2009, 10:00:32 PM »
It was more a comment on rope trick not working than dumpstatting Str, but I get the feeling you understood that.

Oh yeah, got side tracked by weight. Ropetrick doesn't matter, because we just picked an out of the way or reset trapped room that we had found through a secret door, and close all the doors. Nothing can attack without giving lots of warning, and it's not like the rules don't basically hand you a giant kitchen sack full of Wizards can prepare spells no matter how often you interrupt.

Usually, you don't cast enough spells that require the same type of material component that you find yourself lacking them. I haven't. You can just shop for supplies next time you're in a town. Usually, you don't need to think about mending your boots, or patching your coat, or even taking a shit. Not many DM's focus on details to the point where these things needs to be considered.

And once again, the rules tell me that I can carry two years supply of all my material components, and in fact, 3 or 4 years, and in fact, thousands of years worth of supplies in a spell component pouch. When you need like one grain of sand to cast a spell, it's surprisingly easy to keep sand handy. I've been on 3 year journey's through the planes with no stop to pick up cobwebs, And I still had cobwebs in my bag. Again, I killed a Wizard after leveling once. Seriously once. Not running out, like ever.

I don't have a hard time seeing an DM with attention to detail give you a circumstance penalty to your damage with your longsword if you haven't sharpened it for a week. YMMV.

I do have a hard time seeing anyone be so stupid. 1) You switch weapons every five days anyway. 2) It takes like 3 days before you get a magic longsword that magically stays sharp. 3) You don't have to sharpen your sword. You really don't. I've never sharpened my blade in my life, if I went and picked it up right now, it would still be in fine condition.

Quote from: WLD page 12
Because the PCs are going to be underground for about 2 game years, with no way of returning to the surface, it's difficult for wizards fo justify spells "appearing" in their spellbooks. Sorcerers, druids, and clerics all draw their power from a less tangible source, but a wizard has no new sources of magic.

It boils down to how you like to interpretate the in-game procedure (purely rp-wise) of how a wizard gets more spells.
By RAW it's no problem, but by RAW you heal damage when drowning if you're at lower than -1 Hp when it happens.
See my point?

It boils down to someone having to try very hard to make up some crazy reason why Wizards can't cast spells in a dungeon. You get fewer scrolls and no access to the Arcane Library. That's fine. But when a Wizard levels up they don't get spells from a scroll or an arcane library or reading books or playing chess or carefully dissecting newts. They get spells from natural learning of arcane power.

Your point is bullshit. Your point is that the since there is a single completely unrelated issue in which the rules don't dictate what you think should happen, therefore, all bets are off, and you should completely ignore the actual rules and the actual way that Wizards get spells and make up whatever shit you want.

And regarding Web/Entangle

Quote from: WLD page 12
One last thing, spells like entangle and web are devastatingly powerful in a dungeon. We've made sure the bad guys don't have them. DMs should do the same with the PCs

Of course, I think this is silly. You allready need what advantages you can get.

That WLD limits Clerics just isn't so. There's nothing in and of itself in the module that makes clerics have a harder time, unlike the afformentioned wizards.

Yeah, nothing effects Cleric at all. I also don't understand the no web entangle shit, because banning something for being useful makes no sense. Of course, my DM had the aforementioned dead Wizard cast Web, so whatever. He apparently changed the prepared spell list to have the supposedly banned spell.

Druids... well, it depends on how anal you want to get.

Quote from:  WLD, page 15
If you think wizards have it bad in the Dungeon, imagine communing with nature. With the exception of Regions H, K, and L (and maybe Region O), there isn't much for druids to do. Sure, the can cast barkskin and have limited healing powers, but tha are the odds of finding an animal companion underground?
We could dance around the point, but instead we recommend that DMs simple ban druid PCs. After all, it's called the World's Largest Dungeon. You knew the score when you bought it. We won't apologize for its shortage of picnic areas. The final, however, decision rest in your hands


I find this interpretation both one-dimensional and boring, not to mention that the authors seem to have no concept over how good a Druid is.

Yes, the idea that stone is somehow not Nature, or that Earth is anti nature, or that plants don't grow in this Dungeon full of animal life is a bit of a joke, and of course they don't know that Druids are awesome, all book publishers are told to pretend it's balanced.

Endarire

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2009, 10:26:32 PM »
Sometimes, research is thinking about something for very long periods.  Wizards do this.

Also, anything 'natural' is not artificial or supernatural.  Gems are natural.  Precious metals are natural.  Dragon dung is natural.  Volcanoes and underground complexes are natural.  Elementals may be natural.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"