Author Topic: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron  (Read 12258 times)

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Akalsaris

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CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« on: July 13, 2009, 06:22:17 AM »
This is a quick look at the Dragons of Eberron supplement.  The book is mostly filled with fluff, but there's two parts to it that I could find that are worth examining from a CO perspective.

SOVEREIGN ARCHETYPES (Pg. 30-31)

These are like Alternative Class Features for dragons in Eberron.  Most CO regulars are familiar with the Loredrake option used with a Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer.  However, these options still hold value for other PCs, such as Supermount characters with a dragon steed, Zhentarim Skymages, Dragon cohorts, dragon familiars, and actual dragon PCs.

Basically, think of how all true dragons get sorcerer spells after young or so, and most can also choose to learn spells from a few cleric domains as well.  You give up those cleric spell options when you take this - if you wouldn't get any cleric domains, then you have no downside from taking an archetype.  So  this is intended for any true dragon that will eventually gain the ability to cast sorcerer and cleric spells (red dragon, brass dragon, etc.), but not for other true dragons like ambush drakes or dragonwrought kobolds.

Child of Eberron:
Basically multiclasses the dragon with druid for spells.  I don't think it's that terrific given that most PC dragons won't have a huge CL and the sorcerer list is already pretty sweet. 

Flame of the Forge: Helps with crafting and also grants Use Magic Device!  This would be great on a dragon familiar, for example.  Oh, and given the bonus spells that the dragon gains, it would make an excellent poison user as well.

Fortune's Fang: Eh, it's a decent choice for the party face, gives some solid domains and whatnot. 

Guide of the Weak: Same as the above, nothing too exciting, though the domains are worse.

Lightkeeper:
Whoa!  If the dragon takes Extra Turning, she gains Turn Undead 4/day.  Plus casting from some nice domains like Glory and War, which means DMM: Persist and Divine Power in one tidy package. 

Loredrake: Ah, the infamous Loredrake.  Trades cleric spells for +2 ECL of sorcerer.  This is a sweet choice for almost any dragon unless you're tanking (d12 HD -> d10). 

Master of the Horde: Another party face option with some decent domains like Charm and Travel.  This is probably the best of the three.

Passion's Flame: This is a weird one.  Gain Perform and Rage X/Day, along with some obscure domains. 

Stalking Wyrm: The sneaky option!  Gains the stealth skills and track+survival, as well as a favored enemy progression.  Definitely a cool choice for a dragon familiar.

Wyrm of War: This is my favorite tanking choice - gain all simple and martial weapons, all armors, and normal shield use, as well as a bonus fighter or dragon feat/4 levels or maneuvers from the Tiger Claw school.  Perfect for a Supermount, since the supermount will have tons of HD but a very low CL.


MAGICAL LOCATIONS

In detailing these I will use the format in Omen of Peace's archived Magical Locations thread.


Library of Hidden Knowledge: Pg. 88.  [2,000g]
Cheap at 2,000g with a wide variety of minor effects.  Architecture and Engineering grants the elf's auto-trapfinding for secret doors, which is pretty awesome.  The others are generally minor benefits, though as somebody who enjoys poisons I definitely liked Dungeoneering: use Detect Poison at will on plants and vermin in a dungeon.  When DMing, I already do something similar to this with non-magical books, providing tiny benefits such as +1 to Knowledge (Local) for a month's reading of Volo's Guide to All Things Awesome or something. 
Duration: 1 month.
Activation: Super easy, but it takes a week.

Mystic Glade: Pg. 90.  [4,000g]
Interesting location - you roll a d12 for a random "quest."  When you succeed in this prophesiezed quest, you gain a single use of Limited Wish.  So potentially game-breaking, but only if the DM is inexperienced enough to allow the PC to abuse wishes.  As a DM, I like this location a lot - it provides a cool quest reward for PCs, assuming that you come up with appropriate quests beforehand that will tie into the game's plot.  As a PC, well, you can always pray that you're a halfling druid and rolled "Will one day hand-feed a dinosaur" for your mini-quest. 
Duration: N/A
Activation: Moderate for spellcasters, Hard for others.  Takes 3 days.

The Heart of Io: Pg. 113.  [2,400g]
Gain an aberrant dragonmark or +3/day of a Least at a mid-high cost.  Nothing very exciting IMO, might be good for the Black Dog PrC from Dragonmarked.  For DMs, this would be a good way to get players more interested in the dragonmarked part of the game.
Duration: 1 year
Activation: Easy (but buff up your Fortitude save and grab an Eagle's Splendor before trying)


Council of Skulls: Pg. 142.  [2050g for legend lore, 7680g for half-dragon]
Good location for a dragonmarked diplomancer or superb roleplayer, mediocre for anyone else.  Basically your character chats it up with a dozen dragon heads - if they like her, she gets to ask them a Legend Lore question.  If they really like her (Read: DC 40 Diplomacy), then one skull gives her the Half-Dragon template for 1 hour/week for a month!  As a DM, I think this is a classic "quest to find the mystic oracle" kind of quest area.
Duration: the template only lasts for 1 month
Activation: Hard.  DC 40 Knowledge, DC 40 Diplomacy (optional).

Alter of Blood:
Pg. 143.  [40,000g]
This is basically the "I'm sacrificing my loved one for ultimate arcane power" alter.  As such, it's really more of an NPC tool than a PC one.  For the short duration it also has a very high cost.
Duration: 1 month, then diminishing returns.  I guess after the sixth loved one it just doesn't have the impact that it did the first time.
Activation: Very Hard, unless you sincerely love an orphanage and are slowly sacrificing them all to Tiamat or something.


Anyhow, that's all I've got.  Anyone who's spotted something else useful from the book or has some good ideas about how to use the resources in it, please post away!

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 06:38:06 AM »
Quote
unless you sincerely love an orphanage and are slowly sacrificing them all to Tiamat or something.


This is supposed to be a problem?


[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 06:39:05 AM »
As much as I object to using kobolds to qualify for the materials presented in DoE, here's what I've found:

Alternate Form [Feat] page 15
So a loredrake kobold can take it as its 3rd level feat. From then on, it's like Wild Shape-lite 3/day. It's even better than a druid's up until 7th level too! And even then, it has no limit as to how small you could get... so using Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species, you could be a Fine Kobold (e.g. a Sparrow form from OA), blasting enemies from... nowhere.

Unlimited duration too (acts just like AF of Bronze/Gold/Silver dragons), all for the low, low cost of a single feat.

Half-dragon Form [feat] page 15
Requires some ability to assume humanoid form (like AF feat) and now you can AF into a half-dragon humanoid. Take the feat, never change back into a normal kobold again!


Emy

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 09:26:07 AM »
Half-dragon Form [feat] page 15
Requires some ability to assume humanoid form (like AF feat) and now you can AF into a half-dragon humanoid. Take the feat, never change back into a normal kobold again!

It's a shame that the Half-Dragon Form feat doesn't work on all Alternate Forms, just the humanoid ones. Such a shame. Flind Gnoll is one of the better forms for Half-Dragon Form, if I recall correctly.

Alternate Form [Feat] page 15
So a loredrake kobold can take it as its 3rd level feat. From then on, it's like Wild Shape-lite 3/day. It's even better than a druid's up until 7th level too! And even then, it has no limit as to how small you could get... so using Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species, you could be a Fine Kobold (e.g. a Sparrow form from OA), blasting enemies from... nowhere.

Unlimited duration too (acts just like AF of Bronze/Gold/Silver dragons), all for the low, low cost of a single feat.

It is "lite" in most ways, but has some advantages. It doesn't have this, for example:

Quote from: SRD, Wild Shape

Which means you can turn into a Legendary Ape or whatever as soon as you get access to Alternate Form.

I also remember a spell from that book - called "Strength of the True Form" or something like that. It's a swift action to cast, and gives you the Str, Dex, Con, and Natural Armor of your normal form or your current form, whichever is higher, for 1 round. It's personal range though, so it's persistable. It's much more useful for real dragons than for kobolds.

SorO_Lost

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 01:25:05 PM »
The idea a kobold is a true dragon gets brought up a lot but where does it say a kobold is a true dragon?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 01:29:19 PM »
The idea a kobold is a true dragon gets brought up a lot but where does it say a kobold is a true dragon?
Races of the Dragon has a chart of Dragonwrout Kobolds' age categories in terms of a dragon (juvenile, wyrm, etc). And they take no penalties, only stat increases with age.

Quote from: SRD
All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)
So the boost to stats with no downside means Kobolds qualify (or so it is often argued).
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Rebel7284

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 01:31:14 PM »
The idea a kobold is a true dragon gets brought up a lot but where does it say a kobold is a true dragon?

Read the Dragonwraught feat.

I think the same book has a chart equating kobold age categories with draconic age categories.

The definition of a true dragon has something about having age categories and getting more powerful as you reach them.
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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 01:32:00 PM »
The idea a kobold is a true dragon gets brought up a lot but where does it say a kobold is a true dragon?
Races of the Dragon has a chart of Dragonwrout Kobolds' age categories in terms of a dragon (juvenile, wyrm, etc). And they take no penalties, only stat increases with age.

Quote from: SRD
All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)
So the boost to stats with no downside means Kobolds qualify (or so it is often argued).
This, and Draconomicon has a line that states that true dragons are those creatures of the Dragon type with 12 age categories (Wyrmling to Great Wyrm).

Dragonwrought Kobolds meet both those prerequisites.
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Akalsaris

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 01:54:48 PM »
Nice find on pg. 15! 

I could see some definite uses for that stuff for non-kobolds.  Both the zhentarim skymage and supermount builds, for example, ideally want a mount that is both extremely big and scary in a fight, and that can fit into a normal dungeon.  So a well made skymage could have a huge young adult red dragon, and then give that dragon the feats to take an alternate form and lots of pearls of power (or mementos magica or whatever) for that strength of true form spell. 

Besides that, one of the downsides of being anything but a gold or silver dragon is the lack of an alternate form.  With that feat, you could choose a much lower LA dragon like a white dragon and just take the feat.

Here's a cool post for some dragon races btw:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978664

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 02:05:31 PM »
Here's a cool post for some dragon races btw:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=978664
I have an updated version of that thread here: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3070.0

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 02:24:06 PM »
Reading the Dragonwraught feat gets me no where, it just changes your type to Dragon. They do use the aging categories as true dragons but right in the same exact chapter, a few pages down from there on #48, it lists True Dragons as a separate race in the Kobolds And Other Races sections.  I see "more abilities" listed in that quote, is there a 7th ability score I'm missing that shows up when you age?

The thing in the Draconomicon your talking about, it's not the side bar on page 4 is it? Because all that thing does is say dragon's lacking age categories are "lesser dragons" not that "all dragons with age categories are true dragons" or even something like "there are only two dragon types, lesser and true". Also the same side bar says to look in appendix 2 for "complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in official sources." which notably lacks kobolds. Finally the Draconomicon references kobolds are a reptilian race comparable to lizardfolk and troglodytes rather than per say, half dragons. Which ended my source into that book thinking there was anything in there I'm looking for.

Is the whole kobold thing TO based or is there really something that says kobolds count as true dragons?

***

Anyway, what got my attention is the True Dragon entry in the SRD. Young or older true dragons have Frightful Presence. They net Blindsense and Keen Senses as well. I just can't really find anything that backs up the whole kobolds are true dragons thing that gets passed around on the boards.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 03:02:02 PM »
The thing is, what makes a dragon a true dragon was never really defined in any great detail.

About that "comprehensive" list: it makes no sense to list kobolds as true dragons when only very few take the dragonwraught feat.

Basically the age thing is the main thing we have to go by, and the aging chart supports it.

It's very likely not RAI or at the very least the designers didn't realize just how powerful all the dragon rules are when applied to something with 0 LA and 0 racial HD.
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JaronK

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 03:24:49 PM »
Assuming for that moment that Dragonwrought Kobolds can take the Soverigns, the fact that those archetypes give you all Cleric spells or all Druid spells on your list is AWESOME for Kobold Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warblades.  Just incredible, really.

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 03:25:48 PM »
Assuming for that moment that Dragonwrought Kobolds can take the Soverigns, the fact that those archetypes give you all Cleric spells or all Druid spells on your list is AWESOME for Kobold Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, and Warblades Warmages.  Just incredible, really.

JaronK

Fixed that for you ;)
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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 03:46:53 PM »
The reason dragonwrought kobolds aren't listed on the list is simple.

That list only lists statblocks.  Wizards of the Coast has NEVER statted up a dragonwrought kobold.

The true dragon thing boils down to this:
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 03:49:36 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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JaronK

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2009, 03:51:57 PM »
D'oh.  Yeah, I meant Warmages.

Anyway, we're actually playing a heavily optimized all dragon run through WLD right now... though all our characters are righteous good characters who refuse to do things like sneak because that's dishonorable.  And yes, we've got a Loredrake Sorcerer, a Fortune's Fang Beguiler, a Wyrm of War Cloistered Cleric/PrC Paladin, and a bunch of other nasty little soverign kobolds.  Due to our intentionally stupid playstyle, we're still getting hammered, but it's fun.

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2009, 03:55:09 PM »
The fact that Races of the Dragon (and thus the Dragonwrought feat) was first printed in January 2006, almost 2.5 years after the first printing of Draconomicon, may also have to do with their conspicious absence from the list. Just sayin'.

Jaron: That party sounds awesome.
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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2009, 03:57:37 PM »
Jaron: That party sounds awesome.
Hell yes! :D
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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2009, 04:41:46 PM »
It's really fun actually.  A bunch of Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds, some Dragonborn, with Soverign Archtypes, plus a few PCs of other races... it's a lot of power.  And yet, we insist on entering rooms by having the Beguiler check for traps, then the Dragonborn Neanderthall Crusader kicks in the door and demands the surrender of anything evil.  At this point, both my Cleric (DMM persistant at level 1, baby!) and the Crusader are cursed to be automatically confused in combat for the next 12-22 days.  But it's a heck of a lot of fun.

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Re: CO Spotlight: Dragons of Eberron
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2009, 08:31:42 PM »
Dragonwrought pops up every now and then.
2 or 3 times back, I managed to find the original thread, that it was discussed on.
Tsuyoshikentsu.
You know that name.
He was at his best, on that thread.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-570864.html
and TML weighs in with this:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15044395&postcount=36

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I liked Wyrm of War early on.
I guess its good for the majority of levels.
Obviously, the high level spellcasting works better,
but a Dragon can take Leadership, and get mo' better spellcasting that way.
Surreal gets a 2nd (as usual).