Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1.

[KellKheraptis]

IIRC from the Ultimate Mage thread, isn't that one unfettered heroism?  We use it to create mana regen via Primal Scholar's Secret of Power

[awaken DM golem]

I'm not convinced at all that's Tier 1. 

Can a Psion with Recharge pick their powers as need arises? 

There's no jaw hitting floor smiley face. Someone thinks that psionic recharge is not broken. Wow.
I'm just suffering some cognitive dissonance, not that I disagree with you.

Psion get PsyRef at level 7, around the time a recharge set-up gets going.
Linked PsyRefs can go off during round 2 on any fight. Knowledge checks let you know what you need.
Experience Is A River, up until the 8s and 9s roll in.
Then yeah, you are an 8 9 Hammer; but it's a whole lot of hammers.

Recharge Psion is definitely stronger than Cleric or Wiz from say level 7 - maybe earlier - until level 15.

[JaronK]

I'm of the opinion that the ability to do one powerful ability over and over all day long is not nearly as powerful as the ability to pick from 5 powerful abilities and only use each one once per day, simply because it's rare that you deal with enough encounters per day for recharge to matter that much, while the ability to pick the right tool for the job is just so handy. 

With that said, I consider Tier 2 and up to be more powerful than I usually like, so I guess I do consider Psions to be overpowered... just not as much so as Wizards.

As a great example of Clerics being Tier 1, my Cleric and our party Crusader, at level 1, were both hit with a nasty curse that makes us useless in combat for the next 12-22 days (WLD traps are NASTY).  The Crusader was basically screwed, and is now reduced to backup healing (Martial Stance) and diplomacy, which makes him still useful but vastly less so than normal.  My Cleric just shifted around his spells, and is now using persistant Detect Secret Doors with Detect Magic to be the ultimate detector, while using other utility spells and lesser vigor to help the party.  He simply changed roles, despite originally being designed as a melee character.

JaronK

[Suzerain]

There's no jaw hitting floor smiley face. Someone thinks that psionic recharge is not broken. Wow.
I'm just suffering some cognitive dissonance, not that I disagree with you.

As a sidenote, I think there is at least one other (and he's the DM of that campaign, too!).

[PhaedrusXY]

Can a Psion with Recharge pick their powers as need arises?  

With the right setup, yes. A Cohort (or Thrall..., or other psionic party member, or even a level 3+ follower) with Expanded Knowledge + Feat Leech (on the cohort or the psion) means you can temporarily "learn" any power 1 level lower than your max known powers.

Then of course there is Psychic Reformation (which is awesome in a reuseable tattoo ). If the tattoo option isn't available, you can use a Metaconcert to divide the XP cost between the main character and 10 followers/believers.

All of these allow you to change your powers known faster than a cleric can.

I actually think a well-optimized psion can easily reach Tier 1.

[KellKheraptis]

Well...what is the mechanic for learning powers? I.E. an erudite has effectively infinite powers known, where as a psion tops out at what, 30 something?  If you were to retrain everything after getting all the powers you want (and spells for that matter), would all those extras go away, even though they were learned/known (i.e. become a psion, suffer mass amnesia).  Also, assuming an eruthrallherd, what's stopping you from Psi-Chir-ing everything before retraining?  They're powers known that would survive the reformat, basically giving you all the perks of being an erudite, with none of the irritating drawbacks.

[PhaedrusXY]

Well...what is the mechanic for learning powers?

It is in my first post. You use Feat Leech to "borrow" your cohort's (or fellow psionicist PC's, or Dominated NPC, etc)Expanded Knowledge feat. You can then use that to learn any power you want, up to 1 level lower than your max powers.

Or you can use Psychic Reformation to learn any power you want, by rechoosing your powers known for the last level (or more). You can defray the XP cost by using a reusable tattoo of this, or manifesting it via a Metafaculty (which splits it up 10 ways, with 9/10ths of it going to your followers/believers).

I.E. an erudite has effectively infinite powers known, where as a psion tops out at what, 30 something?  If you were to retrain everything after getting all the powers you want (and spells for that matter), would all those extras go away, even though they were learned/known (i.e. become a psion, suffer mass amnesia).  Also, assuming an eruthrallherd, what's stopping you from Psi-Chir-ing everything before retraining?  They're powers known that would survive the reformat, basically giving you all the perks of being an erudite, with none of the irritating drawbacks.

Erudite is already listed as Tier 1, so it's not worth making the argument. But yeah, you can do something like what you're suggesting. You can do the same thing as a Psion/Thrallherd, though. You have your Thrall use Psychic Chir... on you to give you all his powers, then kill him and get a new one, and do the same thing with him. Repeat until you have them all, and it doesn't cost you anything (except your soul, IRL).

Abusing the Thrallherd is getting away from rating core classes and more into rating PrCs, though. Of course, you could do most of what we've discussed here with the Leadership feat, except for the disposable Cohorts part.

[awaken DM golem]

All the permutations ... take time to re-remember (ugh).

So as simple a comparison as possible:

Round 1 Wiz vs. Psion Recharge
Q ..... Wiz 8 meta ... vs ... Q1 linked Psi Ref , sack Move for re-focus
1 ...... Wiz 9 ............ vs ... Psi 9 fewer choices
Advantage Wizard

Round 2
Q ... Wiz 8 meta ... vs ... Limited List of Swift/Immed Powers Linked 8 or 9 , or Q 8 or 9 ; still fewer choices though closer power level
1 .... Wiz 9 .......... ~vs ...Psi Ref goes off
Delayed 1 ...................... Psi 9 fewer choices
Advantage Wizard but not as much

Round 3 to X (?)
Q ... Wiz 8 meta ... vs ... Un-Limited List of Swift/Immed Powers Linked 8 or 9 , or Q 8 or 9 ; still fewer choices on the 9s
1 .... Wiz 9 ............ vs ... Psi 8 or 9 , just now the right one
Linked ........................... Psi 8 or 9 , just now the right one --- might have to do a move action inventory to really get it right
Advantage might be an argument about Wiz choices vs. Psi as right a choice as can be

Round X !!
Q ... Wiz 6 meta .... vs... Un-Limited List of Swift/Immed Powers Linked 8 or 9 , or Q 8 or 9
1 .... Wiz 7 ............  vs ... Psi 8 or 9 , just now the right one
Linked ............................ Psi 8 or 9 , just now the right one
Advantage Psion

And Out-of-combat Advantage Psion.
And combats 2+ Advantage Psion.

**

It doesn't help the Psion's cause, that it is better round X and out of combat and any combat after the 1st, and up to 8s.
Wiz 9s are that good.
No "fights" means no use of Psion's good stuff, Psions are that complicated.
Wiz just trots out PHB and smiles.

[Samb]

What is this psi recharge?  Is it an ACF or a trick with a combo of powers and feats?

Wilder have a recharge cheat as well using wild surge, bestow power and enervation endurance (at higher levels) but unless a psion takes the anarchic initiate PrC a psion can't do it.

It's hard to say that psion with infinite PP and psychic reform would not be tier 1. Going nova every encounter...... How is that inferior to a wizard?  I suppose it is not noticable with DMs that only dish out 3-5 encounters/day but even then a recharging psion (whatever that is) can always use the best suited power everytime without worry of...... Anything really. 

[Sinfire Titan]

Erudite Addendum: Due to a rereading of the base class' Unique Powers/Day ability, it is possible that even the base Erudite is capable of being Tier 1. Access to all non-Discipline/Mantle Psionic Powers of 9th level and lower (and able to learn any Mantle/Discipline power of 8th level or lower) means it has the spellbook ability of the Archivist, but Psionic-only. The Unique Powers ability is somewhat unclear, but RAW says it is 11 powers/power level, not just a flat 11 powers. This means 11 1st level powers, 11 2nd level powers, and so on.

Furthermore, the ability to select unique powers/day on the fly is like a Wizard with Uncanny Forethought, only more uses/day and no Full Round action or CL penalty. This is, effectively, the most versatile class ever printed in terms of spells/powers alone (the Archivist still needs to prepare each day, the Wizard is limited when using Uncanny Forethought and only has the Sor/Wiz list unless he uses feats/PrCs to add spells, and the Artificer needs to craft items in order to have the same kind of flexibility).

The Erudite is capable of "learning" a spell as a full round action. In 16 hours worth of time, AKA 9600 rounds, he is able to leech an effective 9600 spells. He can "write them in his spellbook" merely by sleeping for 8 hours to recharge his PP and paying 20 XP/Erudite level/Power he wants to learn, and can pick and choose from those 9600. What this translates into is he can learn 50 new powers by forgoing a level up, the same way a Wizard can stall their own level up to craft magic items (DMG, I forget the page number, but it is in there).

Due to the RAW on his Unique Powers/day, the Erudite is not as restricted when multiclassing as we first thought. An Erudite who multiclasses at 6th level has 4 unique powers/power level, effectively the same number of spells prepared as the unmodified Generalist Wizard, but the spontaneity of the Uncanny Forethought feat on crack. There's also an advantage to multiclassing out at an early level: the cost to learn new powers is set by your Erudite level, not character level or manifester level.

An Erudite 6/Anarchic Initiate 10/Slayer 4 only has to pay a grand total of 120 XP per power he tries to learn; compare to an Erudite 20, who has to pay 400 XP per power. The advantage somewhat outweighs the restrictions placed on the Erudite's manifesting abilities. An Erudite 19 who forgoes gaining his 20th level can learn an effective 50 Powers of his choice, all within 24 hours. It takes him 5 minutes to leech these powers (though he can't manifest anything during those 5 minutes). The XP the Erudite forgoes is 19,000 points (20*19=380. 380*50=19,000), which is enough XP to gain a level.

Contrast with the Erudite 6/Anarchic Initiate 10/Slayer 3, also a 19th level character trying to level up to 20th. He has 19,000 XP to spare, and a free day's worth of time. The cost to learn a power for him is a mere 120 XP, which allows him to learn approximately 158 new powers at the cost of gaining a level (19,000/120=158.33, rounding down to 158). 158 rounds is 948 seconds, or 15.8 minutes.

Adding in Spell to Power or Dragon 349 only makes things more ridiculous, as it opens up entire new spell lists for him to leech from. This can arguably push the Erudite into "Tier 0".

[Archmage Joda]

Exactly where in Dragon 349 is this thing that gives Erudites access to divine spells anyway?

[PhaedrusXY]

With the ability to quickly rearrange powers known and feats (Psychic Reformation), a Celerity that's even better than the original (Anticipatory Strike), and Timestop as a level 6 power (Temporal Acceleration), I think Psions should be Tier 1, much less StP Erudites... (I agree they should be Tier 0).

[Sinfire Titan]

Exactly where in Dragon 349 is this thing that gives Erudites access to divine spells anyway?

Don't know, as I don't have the magazine itself. Trying to find out the exact quote, but the article is titled Psiotheurgy.

With the ability to quickly rearrange powers known and feats (Psychic Reformation), a Celerity that's even better than the original (Anticipatory Strike), and Timestop as a level 6 power (Temporal Acceleration), I think Psions should be Tier 1, much less StP Erudites... (I agree they should be Tier 0).

As I said in the Erudite thread a while back, PsiReform is a more expensive version of the Erudite's ability to learn new powers, and costs more to manifest it yourself (normally, the manifester and target split the cost). It also cuts into your PP/day (I'm obviously ignoring infinite loops here), and the Psion has less powers known than the Sorcerer has spells known.

The Erudite doesn't need to manifest PsiReform every time it wants to change powers known, and can have a vast improvement on powers known due to a class feature. The only thing the Psion does better is the ability to choose between 3-5 powers known at 1st and 2nd level, and Disciplines.

PsiReform is also not combat-viable (10 minute manifesting time unless you use Linked Power, and that's cheese well beyond acceptable levels).

I agree with the fact that the Psion has some advantage when compared to arcane spells, but if it gets made Tier 1, then so should the Wilder, who has all of the same tricks (just in fewer numbers). And a fully augmented Temporal Acceleration is 4 rounds of Time Stop, for an effective 11th level spell. The unmodified version is a 6th level spell, but only 1 round in duration. Extend Power can get you 6 rounds if you can increase your ML/reduce the price (and Midnight Augmentation can break the power by reducing the augment to 1 PP, depending on how you read it).

Compare to the Time Stop spell, and a Rod of Greater Maximize/Extend, a Legacy Item that Maximizes/Extends, and Sudden Maximize/Extend (+Recaster for extra uses/day), which can get up to 10 full rounds of Time Stop, the difference favors the arcane caster.

[PhaedrusXY]

I agree with the fact that the Psion has some advantage when compared to arcane spells, but if it gets made Tier 1, then so should the Wilder, who has all of the same tricks (just in fewer numbers). And a fully augmented Temporal Acceleration is 4 rounds of Time Stop, for an effective 11th level spell. The unmodified version is a 6th level spell, but only 1 round in duration. Extend Power can get you 6 rounds if you can increase your ML/reduce the price (and Midnight Augmentation can break the power by reducing the augment to 1 PP, depending on how you read it).

Compare to the Time Stop spell, and a Rod of Greater Maximize/Extend, a Legacy Item that Maximizes/Extends, and Sudden Maximize/Extend (+Recaster for extra uses/day), which can get up to 10 full rounds of Time Stop, the difference favors the arcane caster.

That's a lot of cheese to tweak out your Timestop duration that much. A simple Extend Power gives the Psion a fixed duration of 6 rounds, and he can also put one inside a Contingency, all without going outside his primary book (even augmented, it is still a 6th level power). Add on a couple of ML boosting items, and he can get it to 8 rounds (Orange Ioun Stone, Overchannel, etc).

Yes, in theory a wizard/sorcerer could use Craft Contingent Spell to get a Contingent Timestop, but that feat is incredibly broken and I'd guess rarely allowed. It's also not a class feature, so anyone could get one.

The Wilder's clunky and poorly-written mechanics are enough to bring it down 1 Tier in my eyes, but I certainly understand your argument.

[wotmaniac]

*casts thread necromancy*

Quick question:
strictly speaking in terms of a single-classes cleric, would the elimination of DMM possibly drop the cleric to a Tier 2?
What about altering DMM (e.g., go ahead an just make it a single feat that applies to all MM feats; but limit its use to spells that you would normally be able to MM without DMM -- i.e., if you want to DMM quicken for a 2nd-level spell, you'd have to have access to 6th-level spells)

I'm having a Tier debate and MM discussion with some guys in my group, and I'm just trying to get some stuff nailed down.
Thanks.

[bearsarebrown]

Nope. If you play Core only I don't think the tier system changes much at all. If anything it only weakens lower tiers.

[JaronK]

The biggest issue with the T1s is their ability to say "what, I need a whole new powerset with whatever arbitrary powers I want?  Okay, sure."  DMM just makes it easier to have stuff up when you need it, but at the end of the day even a Cleric who spent all his feats on Toughness and Skill Focus: Craft Baskets can call down miracles and summon angels.

JaronK

[wotmaniac]

meh, oh well.  back to the drawing board.
I'm working on my own re-balancing project (trying to push things in to a T2-T4 spread).
Perhaps I just need to start another thread.

[ninjarabbit]

DMM really doesn't manner with clerics.

Clerics have a pretty good spell list and on top of that they can choose 2 domains (along with the spontaneous domain ACF) is the real power of the cleric. DMM is icing on top of the cake.

[Sinfire Titan]

DMM really doesn't manner with clerics.

Clerics have a pretty good spell list and on top of that they can choose 2 domains (along with the spontaneous domain ACF) is the real power of the cleric. DMM is icing on top of the cake.

There is much truth in this. I'm running a DMM Cleric in another campaign, but I've geared him for combat a little more than I should have (Knowledge Devotion, Archery feats, etc). Even though I can only Persist 1 spell each day, I get more mileage out of my other buff spells than I do out of the Persisted one.