Author Topic: Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1.  (Read 96007 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2009, 10:47:37 PM »
As I recall with Artificers, there's a spell that gives you an action point every round... and an ability to cast a spell off wand using an action point instead of a charge.  The first spell is persistable.  Go wand wielding maniac, go!  And don't forget to get your wands off the trapsmith list, so that the level 3 limit isn't as much of an issue.

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Endarire

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2009, 06:02:08 AM »
Wizard PRO: Being able to kill people with your mind makes for an excellent scenario akin to Revenge of the Nerds.  As the saying goes, a high level Fighter can hit stuff really hard.  A high level Wizard can remake existence in less than a round's time on his chosen plane.  As another saying goes, "In mortality, the shortest way to divinity is through wizardry."

A level 15 Wizard worth his spells is effectively a demigod, able to turn X into Y, go where he pleases on this plane and that, blow stuff up because it doesn't belong there, give life to Simulacrums of his favorite dragons/outsiders, call his favorite deity via Contact Other Plane and get scooped on what spells to prepare for that time period, Clone himself a backup self, and enslave cities with Charm/Dominate >>all in the same day.<<  (Really, a Wizard can access every spell if only indirectly.  A Solar casts spells as a Cleric20.  An Efreeti can emulate L6 Druid spells, and there's probably some extraplanar Archivist, Psion, Erudite, Artificer, <class name> who'd be willing to help you for a large enough bribe or a strong enough Charm/Dominate Monster.  Gate one in and have a ball, or better yet, a Prismatic Sphere!)

If someone uses the phrase, "A Wizard did it!" you can choose to take credit without speaking a word.

A Wizard knows a lot.  Potentially, he knows everything.  More likely, he knows the relevant stats of any CR-appropriate fight and then some.  A level 5 Wizard who boosts his INT and Knowledge checks could go to some random stranger, take 10, and tell them all their childhood secrets.  Even the DM might be creeped out at that.

Wizard CON: Your power starts slow.  Unlike even many Rogues, at level 1 you're stuck in back judiciously using your small number of level 1 and 0 spells while the front-liners get to feel continually special.  (Even tier 5s and 6s can shine at level 1 and laugh at the Wizard.  Then the Wizard levels and outshines them brighter than Daylight.)  Hopefully you packed Cloudy Conjuration or some means of giving your spells some extra oomf.  At best, you have 5 level 1 slots at level 1 from being a 20+ INT Focused Specialist.  More likely, you'll have 3 or 4.

Managing until about level 5 when you can safely cast a spell or two every fight and not feel like you're wasting your resources is a challenge, if only to your patience.  Things tend to get much easier from there, unless your DM is annoying and repeatedly targets your spellbook, imprisons you naked, sends Antimagic Field-generating creatures at you, or decides to "challenge" you by stripping you of your highest level spell slots on a whim.

Another problem is spell selection:  There are often too many good spells for me to choose at a given level.  What spells do I pick when my Conjurer hits level 3:  Mirror Image and Glitterdust; Invisibility and Web; Rope Trick and Cloud of Bewilderment?  Complete Arcane's Collegiate Wizard and Races of the Wild's Elven Generalist increase the number of free spells known, but these aren't always available or optimal.

Scrolls you want aren't guaranteed to be available on demand to pad your lean spellbook, but when you can Teleport across the world in minutes, your odds drastically improve.  Cost is a significant factor unless your DM says you can use Secret Page to make spellbooks with every spell in the game at no charge, or you find another method.  WotC assumes Wizards pay gold for their extra spells and don't use money tricks like spamming Water to Acid then selling the acid, or binding farms of Efreet for all the Wishes they want.  (I'm not saying being a Wish farmer is necessarily a bad thing, but I am saying your DM is probably a reasonable person who disapproves of your trying to shortcut your way to divinity and ignoring his plot hooks.  Your DM has feelings too, and he probably doesn't want to play alone.)

Sometimes, Wizard players become rampantly annoying when they ask their DMs what sorts of limits he puts on their power.  "Can I use Shadow Miracle?  Can I make a Simulacrum of a Solar to keep in my Bag of Holding?  How soon can I turn this peaceful farming village into a hooker/terrorist/necromancer/ludicrously profitable encampment?  What do you mean I can't cast the spells of my new Polymorph form?  What's so bad about using Genesis to create a plane of pure gold/platinum/diamond/obdurium that only I can access with a hole in the middle big enough for my construct army to mine out?"

Playing a Wizard effectively requires preparation, planning, and the ability to anticipate your DM's actions out of character.  Some people consider this cheating or unsporting, but if you weren't so smart out of character, why play a Wizard?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 06:11:00 AM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Chaos josh

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2009, 05:37:00 PM »
Cleric:

Cons:
? Often requires Divine Metamagic (Which is occasionally banned) and Nightsticks (may be banned or demoted to un-stackable). Needs to have some idea of domains chosen (although that's only at low levels).

? Undead Creation is often Evil, and thus banned for Good clerics. This also extends to other aligned spells. Rebuking is considered much stronger than turning undead.

? PrC'ing is a must. You really don't get anything by staying in Cleric.

? Just because you're a cleric, people will be expecting you to heal. This is a trap. Healing in combat has proved to be not as optimal as other actions.

? Feat heavy. Clerics usually require 3 feats (Extend spell, persist spell, and divine metamagic), and may require additional feats to qualify for PrC's.

? You have an aura. Specifically, you are a giant neon sign to anyone who uses the Detect alignment spells.

Pros:
? Divine Metamagic: Persist is easily their best trick. The ability to make spells such as Divine Power, Righteous Wrath, Lesser Vigor, etc. etc. last all day is one of the best tricks for buffing and forgetting about it. This is especially useful for breaking the metamagic cap, and spontaneously using metamagic.

? If you need skill points, Cloistered Cleric is the ACF for you. You'll gain 4 skill points/level, a form of bardic knowledge, additional spells and free use of the Knowledge Domain, while only losing on average 1 hp and medium armor profs (which is made up by some PrCs) (The loss of BAB is covered by Divine Power).

? Clerics gain some of the best minion creation spells in the game. This includes the summon monster line, gate, planar ally, animate dead, etc. This is not including what a cleric may have by rebuking enemies, either.

? Domain spells, and also the domain powers can be very helpful. This also makes a one level dip in cleric good for almost any build. You could potentially gain 2 feats AND the ability to use all cleric scrolls/wands/staves including those of your domain spells. Heck, having the Magic domain for a 1 level dip means you net wizard/sorcerer magic items as well. You can even pick up Trap Finding, Uncanny Dodge, or many other class features through this dip. And lets not forget that some even give you a +1-2 to caster level on certain spells, or even the ability to turn additional creatures. This isn't including the Divine Magician class feature in Complete mage, giving you any 9 wizard spells (1 per level) from specific schools.

? Some devotion feats are strong, and are also powered by turning as well. These include using Travel devotion to move and full attack, animal devotions to gain flight/bonuses to Str, or additional hit/damage with Knowledge devotion. You get more devotion feats than the other classes as well. (potential of 3 as opposed to 2).

? You have effectively ALL cleric spells on your spell list. You are not some sissy with a book that he needs to protect, or loaded to the brim with scrolls/wands like the artificer. This is an advantage whenever a PrC says something like "Able to cast seven different divination spells, one of which must be 3rd level or higher." or similar.

? They get the very nice Divine Insight, which gives up to +15 insight to a single skill check (is discharged). This is powerful if you consider Knowledge devotion, and even without may replace the rogue (although going on that route may make the dungeon take more time).

? You get Quicken spell. This doesn't seem that much better than the other tier 1's, until you realize that you can take Divine Metamagic: Quicken, breaking the metacap as well.

? 4 turning attempts are worth 7,500g. Hurrah for nightsticks.

? You can buy a +4 to CL for 10 mins. for 20,000g. And it's Core as well.

? Animate Dead Abuse: Combining Desecrate and animate dead could potentially net you a 10-headed Hydra zombie. At 5th level. Effectively a 75 hp tank with 10 attacks/round. Costs a bundle on Onyx though...

? There's a lot of broken things you can do with clerics as well. Sure, everyone knows that Druids have wildshape, and wizards can create different planes, but do they have spiffy names like the Twice Betrayer of Shar or the Cheater of Mystra. The main broken thing, unlike the Planar Shepard or Incantrix, is that they rely on not prestige classes, but a feat. Initiate of Mystra allows you the ability to cast in antimagic fields. You can cast antimagic field. With Ocular Spell, you can persist antimagic fields. There's also Greater Compulsive Field abuse (Gain +2 str, 1d8 hp, and +1 CL by killing 1 commoner. Run through the town!).

? There are so many GOOD cleric prestige classes. This adds to the variety of Cleric builds. Just going by the handbook here on BG's there is:
Bone Knight
Church Inquisitor
Contemplative
Divine Oracle
Malconvoker
Ordained Champion
Prestige Paladin
Radiant Servant
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Sacred Exorcist
Sacred Fist
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Sovereign Speaker
Thaumaturgist
Dweomerkeeper

? Borderline SAD. You only really need Wis, as it's the main casting stat. Every other stat could be a 10, but it's handy to have them higher. Not as SAD as say, Druids, due to lacking transformation skills (Without domain choices, however. A cleric with the transformation domain can persist a Polymorph at 9th level.)

? The basic class is one of the best. Two good saves (being the important ones), a d8 HD, and 3/4 BAB are pretty good. The ability to cast regardless of armor, while also being proficient in it, is a sole feature of the Cleric in this tier (well, at lower levels anyhow). (For all it's worth, it's not important, but it is a pro).

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2009, 06:02:43 PM »
Divine insight?  More like guidance of the avatar.
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Rebel7284

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2009, 06:18:12 PM »
you can't normally persist polymorph.
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Chaos josh

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2009, 07:05:22 PM »
Divine insight?  More like guidance of the avatar.
True. Forgot what the name of that one was called, though. On the other hand, Competence Skill bonuses are far more common than Insight bonuses. Still, +35 to a single skill check is fairly good (although may not be worth two spells).

you can't normally persist polymorph.
Depends on whether or not Touch is considered a "Fixed" range. Either way, Ocular Spell solves this problem (Put a hand over your eye).

Endarire

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2009, 08:14:36 PM »
Persist draconic polymorph, alter self, or shapechange if plain o' polymorph gets too troublesome.

A FAQ says touch spells aren't considered fixed range, but some DMs allow persiting touch spells.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2009, 02:31:41 AM »
Added: Chaos Josh's Cleric description, Endarire's Wizard section, JaronK's, Awaken DM Golem's, The_Mad_Linguist's and Bastian's Artificer pieces.

Tier 1 is coming along swimmingly folks, thanks to everybody.  :clap

Also, I'd like to remind everyone if they have things to add to any of the other threads to feel free. I will continue to update them all as more information comes along.

In addition, I had someone send me an email asking my oppinion on the spirit shaman and what tier I thought he would be in. I responded telling him I would put it on low tier 2 due to:

Pros: Full casting progression, spontaneous casting (druid list)

Cons: Class features appear too specific to be effective on a daily basis

Though the spells are drawn from the druid list the spirit shaman lacks the pocket Werebear-ceratops and the versatility brought with wild shape. This is a double con because of the limited weapon proficiency.

Appears to be a slight MAD issue because they don't get to ignore their physical stats like the druid does.

It seems like it's the druid's sorcerer.

The class seemed very focused to me. But it is worth noting however that I only took a brief look at it. I'd like some more info on how other people see it, to really give this person a good idea on what they're working with. If we decide a place for it, I'll add it to the "Why tier X" thread that's appropriate.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 03:14:04 AM by Gr1lledcheese »

Endarire

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2009, 11:09:42 PM »
Another Wizard CON: Your spell selection is largely at the DM's whim.  If your DM prevents you from expanding your spellbook, you're effectively an INT-based Sorcerer with less spontanaeity, stuck in the less comfortable realm between low tier 1 and high tier 2.  This is especially true if your DM forbids Elven Generalist, Domain Wizard, Collegiate Wizard, or other means of cheaply expanding your spellbook. 

By comparison, if a typical Cleric or Druid loses access to a spell or domain, there's typically little problem since they know EVERY spell on their list.  If the DM doesn't like Druids casting Flame Strike, it's no biggie; just Wild Shape and instead cast Flaming Sphere or Vortex of Teeth or Creeping Cold or...
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

lans

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2009, 02:10:49 AM »
Added: Chaos Josh's Cleric description, Endarire's Wizard section, JaronK's, Awaken DM Golem's, The_Mad_Linguist's and Bastian's Artificer pieces.

Tier 1 is coming along swimmingly folks, thanks to everybody.  :clap

Also, I'd like to remind everyone if they have things to add to any of the other threads to feel free. I will continue to update them all as more information comes along.

In addition, I had someone send me an email asking my oppinion on the spirit shaman and what tier I thought he would be in. I responded telling him I would put it on low tier 2 due to:

Pros: Full casting progression, spontaneous casting (druid list)

Cons: Class features appear too specific to be effective on a daily basis

Though the spells are drawn from the druid list the spirit shaman lacks the pocket Werebear-ceratops and the versatility brought with wild shape. This is a double con because of the limited weapon proficiency.

Appears to be a slight MAD issue because they don't get to ignore their physical stats like the druid does.

It seems like it's the druid's sorcerer.

The class seemed very focused to me. But it is worth noting however that I only took a brief look at it. I'd like some more info on how other people see it, to really give this person a good idea on what they're working with. If we decide a place for it, I'll add it to the "Why tier X" thread that's appropriate.
Its not really a spontaneous caster. It doesn't do metamagic on the fly, and can change its spells every day. Its class features aren't the greatest, but I think they are pretty good.  How well do druids normally do against incorporal undead at the lowest levels? It basically gets  +2 deflection bonus to ac, immunity to charms and compulsions, a contingency heal, can go incorporeal. I put it at low tier 1 on the assumption that all the druid variants are tier 1.
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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2009, 02:25:46 AM »
How often do you fight incorporeal undead at the lowest levels? The Druid fares pretty well anyway, by sharing Produce Flame with its Animal Companion.

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2009, 04:22:55 AM »
Added: The_Mad_Linguist's wizard description, Awaken DM Golem's Spell to Power Erudite description, Akalsaris's description on the druid and Rebel7284's added cons.

Tier 1 makes me excited  :bounce
Tier 1's make me depressed. Unless I am doing something wildly unoptimized with them, I limit them to dips - just to maintain balance, even after all sorts of other nerfs.

That said WLD can actually make wizards, druids, and artificers (miserable and) balanced. :clap
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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2009, 04:36:28 AM »
Erudite: The current summarization does not do justice to the Spell-to-Power variant, as it leaves out their most powerful ability. I'm speaking of Arcane Fusion.

Why does this ability matter? Think of it this way; a Druid becomes pretty much all-powerful upon obtaining Natural Spell. Arcane Fusion is the Spell-to-Power variant Erudite's version of Natural Spell. Because the Erudite's power list is limited only by how willing you are to pay a 400 xp cost (that's for 9th level powers, lower level ones cost less), you can get nearly any spell from every class list.

Now, if having 9th level Psionic Powers, 8th level Arcane Spells, and 7th level Divine Spells isn't enough to justify taking this class to 20th, Arcane Fusion is. Obtainable somewhere around 9th or 11th level, turning Arcane Fusion into a Psionic Power allows you to manifest any 4th level or lower Psionic Power you know for the price of a single 5th level power. This bypasses your Unique Powers/day limit. Great Arcane Fusion does the same thing, but for 7th level and lower powers and at the cost of an 8th level power.

There is some gray area, such as Augmentations, but I'm not going to delve into that complicated mess.


Also, by RAW, an Erudite does not need to prepare his Unique Powers/day; he simply manifests them, and they stick.


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dark_samuari

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2009, 05:15:19 AM »
Erudite: The current summarization does not do justice to the Spell-to-Power variant, as it leaves out their most powerful ability. I'm speaking of Arcane Fusion

Don't worry, I'm currently working on a handbook covering just the Spell-to-Power variant.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2009, 12:55:06 PM »
Added: Sinfire Titan's Erudite spell to power description and Endarire's wizard con.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2009, 01:57:39 AM »
That said WLD can actually make wizards, druids, and artificers (miserable and) balanced. :clap

Collegiate Wizard and Geometer pretty much fixes that for Wizards in WLD, though they're still not too happy.  Flesh to Salt can get a good bit of money though, and that's really helpful.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2009, 05:46:43 PM »
Psion with Recharge

Cons - depends on what the DM will allow. You are either: weak before recharge, very weak before recharge, or using Psychic Reformation. DMs get very frowny-faced over psi-recharge. Completely changes the character build approach. You don't fit the caster back liner model anymore, and the party composition changes too. DM will have to nerf powers or even eliminate them. Never-the-less, the limited choices of 8s and 9s, are inferior to the choices a Wizard or Cleric has. So you spam what you have. Need a reserve to go recharge. You are a Hammer, not a Scalpel; and that's not the best course of action every time. Erudite can do this too, but is even weaker early on.

Pros - "spells" turn into at-wills. De Facto Infinite: Out-of-Combat Heal Novas, Buffing Novas, Transport and Divination Novas, Combat Novas. Any 1 time only Nova, can be done better by Arcane or Divine magic, but instead you can do it again and again. It's Core too  :fu. Clerics get to do other things. Wizards don't have to be Gawd, and can be a Toolkit instead.  Druid is buffed as is the Animal Companion.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2009, 10:47:14 PM »
I'm not convinced at all that's Tier 1.  Sounds far more like a Sorcerer to me... number of shots per day is hardly the issue, it's your ability to have the right tool for the job when you need it.  Can a Psion with Recharge pick their powers as need arises? 

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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2009, 03:58:54 PM »
As I recall with Artificers, there's a spell that gives you an action point every round... and an ability to cast a spell off wand using an action point instead of a charge.

Any idea what these are/where I can find them? Would be very useful for my Artificer :D
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Re: Why Tier 1s are Tier 1.
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »
As I recall with Artificers, there's a spell that gives you an action point every round... and an ability to cast a spell off wand using an action point instead of a charge.

Any idea what these are/where I can find them? Would be very useful for my Artificer :D
I know at least one of them (the AP-granting one, I think) is in Races of Eberron, and I think the other is in Magic of Eberron, but I'm not sure.
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