Author Topic: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.  (Read 52067 times)

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lans

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2009, 04:21:54 AM »
Binders
Pro Binders get a variety of options with 5 round cool downs, including save or sucks, penalties to everything, smites, turning, rerolls, cure light wounds and others. It can get spirited charge and mount, imprisonment at 15th level, phantasmal killer at 10th, get huge bonuses to a variety of skills, +16 to hide and move silently at 13th level for example with 4d6 sneak attack and sudden strike, punch like a monk, walk around and attack everybody you walk by which is kind of cool if you can punch like a monk, move an ally as a swift action,  20% concealment at 6th level unless they can see in darkness like you can.

The pact augmentation allows it to get a bonus on initiative, ac, saves, hp damage reduction, or damage.
Gets immunity to energy drain, and mind blank.

Cons
Can only use most of the cool things like imprisonment or what have you every 5 rounds, which is all right when you can cycle through 5 options, but at first though 8th level it really sucks.
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Akalsaris

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2009, 06:04:27 AM »
Just a suggestion, but why not format it so that the Pros go first, and then the Cons are listed?  Considering that T3 characters are generally above-par at their roles, I would generally want to know what they are good at before I learn all the things they really suck at  :P

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2009, 12:20:58 PM »
Just a suggestion, but why not format it so that the Pros go first, and then the Cons are listed?  Considering that T3 characters are generally above-par at their roles, I would generally want to know what they are good at before I learn all the things they really suck at  :P

The idea behind it is that the balance of Pro/Con ratio shifts past tier 3. Tier 4 and below generally have more cons, tier 3 and above generally have less cons. So as the list progresses, the con section will get progressively smaller while pros gets progressively bigger.

That is...until I go back and do Tier 6  :witsend

Heh... :)
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Added: Dread Necromancer pros and binder description on post #2.

Mushroom

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2009, 12:23:25 PM »
If memory serves, doesn't a level 20 dread necromancer, with the help of an item or two, possess the ability to command like 800+ HD worth of undead?

lans

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2009, 03:33:24 PM »
If memory serves, doesn't a level 20 dread necromancer, with the help of an item or two, possess the ability to command like 800+ HD worth of undead?
It has (Normal per level+2Cha mod)xlevelish so pretty much
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JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2009, 10:15:28 PM »
Dread Necromancer:  As a note, I'm playing one now (I've gone from 1-10 with him) in a low wealth, high optimization game.

Pro:  The Dread Necromancer is of course a 9 level caster class, similar to the Beguiler and Warmage.  Like the Beguiler, his spell list is limited and yet flexible in its own way.  Though he lacks the big power spells of the Tier 1 arcanists, he's still got a bunch of good ones (Cloudkill, Animate Dead, and Planar Binding come to mind, but see the cons for more on Planar Binding).  Plus, Advanced Learning can net him golden spells like Ghoul Glyph, Shivering Touch, and Black Sand.  Unlike the vast majority of caster classes, the Dread Necromancer class abilities are actually solid.  Fear Aura is incredible when combined with Intimidate and Imperious Command.  His familiar selection is awesome.  Charnel Touch provides free downtime healing all day long for his minions, and with Tomb Tainted Soul he can heal himself as well (and any party members that take the feat)... and the ability works quite nicely with sickening grasp.  In fact, a Dread Necromancer wearing Fearsome armor (intimidate as a move action) can use Intimidate (with Imperious Command) to make an enemy cower, then as a free action use Fear Aura to make sure they stay that way, then touch another enemy with Charnel Touch combined with Sickening Grasp to sicken them, then have his Ghostly Visage familiar paralyze them, all in one round without spending any resources.  Plus, if he turns party members into Necropolitans his Undead Mastery ability should help them out a good deal.  And of course Undead Mastery itself provides him with as many mindless minions as he could want, as long as he can afford them (and has a steady supply of onyxs... or takes a two level dip into Palemaster).  Also, turning into a Lich at 20 is awesome, and Rebuke Undead is quite handy on a Charisma based class if you can get the items to support it.  Furthermore, the Dread Necromancer has disguise on his class list and is a Charisma caster, which is incredibly handy for disguising undead minions as being something other than undead (so they don't get rebuked by enemies).  Finally, the constant healing and the damage reduction make Dread Necromancers a surprisingly good low level tank class, but this ability disappears as enemies start hitting harder (around level 5-7).

Cons:  The Dread Necromancer's spell list is quite limited, and most of the really big game breaker spells aren't on there, which keeps him out of Tier 2.  Of note is Planar Binding... though he can cast the spell, he lacks Magic Circle, so he can't actually capture people with it.  All he can do is summon things into traps, kill them, and raise them from the dead.  This is very thematic, but it means he can't actually use their special abilities (such as an Effreti's wishes) because he mostly has to raise them as zombies or skeletons.   At high enough level and with enough rebuke undead improving items he could use Create Undead to make a Bone Creature version of the grabbed minions, but this requires some DM fiat as the DM can pick the appropriate caster level requirement to make a Bone Creature Efreeti.  As such, despite having this powerful spell the Dread Necromancer can't really abuse it like a Sorcerer or Wizard could.  His skill list is also of limited use... Intimidate and Disguise are very useful, and Concentration is nice, but that's about it.  Dread Necromancers will also have a tough time actually filling out their Undead Mastery granted Animate Dead limits, as availability of onyxes can become a serious issue in many games.  Also, Undead Mastery is class level based, making it less attractive to PrC out (but you don't really need to do that).

JaronK