Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.

[Surreal]

I have to say I've always preferred Rogue 16/Swash4, for the special abilities (Crippling Strike, skill mastery)

But is the feat as worthwhile for a rogue?

edit: Well... I guess you'd gain 4 AC (dodge) and +2 Ref, that's not too bad for one feat

[Empirate]

Regarding Paladins and splatbooks: Paladins get a lot of support in splatbooks, much more than Hexblades, for example. The options this opens up are actually quite good.
In Core only, the Paladin's class features do add up - compare a Paladin 5 with a Fighter 5. Paladin 5 isn't versatile in combat, but has options outside, can buff a bit, heal a bit, romance a bit, and has a mount to back him up. Fighter 5? Can trip or shoot things, and that's more or less it. Which the Paladin can do, too, if maybe not quite as efficiently.
Out of Core, Paladins get more class feature support through feats like SotAO and Battle Blessing. Those two combined make them better casters at least than Hexblades (whose spells are also severely limited, and who don't get new ones in each and every splatbook). Also, no class has more alternate class features in print, so there's a lot of versatility to go around. Some of these are very, very good: Harmonious Knight for excellent Bard-like Paladins, or the well-loved Mystic Fire Knight.
Also, don't forget some of the Paladin's greatest class features. Divine Grace is well-loved for a reason. Flat, freely stackable save bonuses are nice. Also there's Turn Undead. You won't actually turn much - but to power Divine feats and Devotion feats, this is essential. There's great Charisma synergy with some of these (Divine Might and Divine Shield, for example).
The diss Smite Evil got here is incomprehensible to me: There's Extra Smiting, Awesome Smite, and Ranged Smiting. There are, in a word, options for this feature. Options are good. And it's not as if a Paladin couldn't get himself a few Ordained Champion levels for more smite uses, too.

All in all, Paladins are nicely optimizable and offer lots of options. Most of these are probably best if you only dip 2, 3 or 5 levels. But more Pally levels definitely have more potential than, say, more Swashbuckler levels.

[Havok4]

Regarding Paladins and splatbooks: Paladins get a lot of support in splatbooks, much more than Hexblades, for example. The options this opens up are actually quite good.

Also the main supermount builds are based on the paladin so they can be good if optimized. But it is more an issue of comparative power, is smite in any way comparable to even 1st level spells, are the paladins casting abilities in any way comparable to even the casting a bard has. You have to take on a bunch of ACFs and some of the best feats available to make the paladin good adn a viable combatant. Where a tier 4 character requires less work to make good and you can make a few bad choices and still work, tier 3 are good out of the box, tier 2 and tier 1 can be easily broken or even accidental broken. A wizard can be broken even if the only feats he takes is toughness.

[Empirate]

You're right, of course. I wasn't arguing Paladins should be Tier 4, just that they're among the better Tier 5s (compared to Swashbuckler, for example), and that they do have some serious optimization potential due to options available in splat. We should try to go for a fair assessment of weaknesses as well as strengths here. Obviously a Warlock, Rogue or Ranger are easier to optimize, and more versatile out of the box. Just saying that a Paladin isn't that far behind.

Also, it irks me that Hexblades are supposed to be Tier 4 - to me, they're not really anything different from Fighters or Paladins, and not really easy to optimize, either (due to lack of supporting splat options).

[JaronK]

Also, it irks me that Hexblades are supposed to be Tier 4 - to me, they're not really anything different from Fighters or Paladins, and not really easy to optimize, either (due to lack of supporting splat options).

For what it's worth, I always considered Hexblades to be at the bottom of T4, and Fighters and Paladins to be at the top of T5.  Mostly, it's because Hexblades have a few really potent abilities (like Alter Self, the Dark Companion substitution, and Cha to saves).  They've got a lot of punch, but you're right... they're very close to Fighters and Paladins.

JaronK

[Empirate]

Alter Self is the bomb for a melee type, I'll give you that. But Cha to saves vs. spells only doesn't compare to Paladins' Cha to all saves. And the Dark Companion ACF is not really better than a familiar, especially with Improved Familiar - which the Pally can counter with his Mount. Dark Companion itself is almost equaled by Paladin of Tyranny's (who also gets a mount...) aura.

But I guess I shouldn't derail about the Hexblade here (that can wait until somebody opens a "Why Tier 4s are Tier 4" thread), and I also believe I've said enough in favor of the Paladin now.

[Anklebite]

Alter Self is the bomb for a melee type, I'll give you that. But Cha to saves vs. spells only doesn't compare to Paladins' Cha to all saves. And the Dark Companion ACF is not really better than a familiar, especially with Improved Familiar - which the Pally can counter with his Mount. Dark Companion itself is almost equaled by Paladin of Tyranny's (who also gets a mount...) aura.

But I guess I shouldn't derail about the Hexblade here (that can wait until somebody opens a "Why Tier 4s are Tier 4" thread), and I also believe I've said enough in favor of the Paladin now.

well, the class oath's also do detract flexibility. despite wanting a good charisma, you can't bluff people.

[Havok4]

Also the hexblade gets polymorph, which instantly makes him better than all mundane melee types in terms of flexibility. 

[Bloody Initiate]

Also the hexblade gets polymorph, which instantly makes him better than all mundane melee types in terms of flexibility. 

I confess it was not until recently I began to appreciate the power of polymorphing. I previously never cared for it because it just wasn't my style, but the Min/Max boards and the "Dragon Age: Origins" Fade segment made me appreciate transformers (Yes, even the robots in disguise).

[ninjarabbit]

And the Dark Companion ACF is not really better than a familiar, especially with Improved Familiar - which the Pally can counter with his Mount. Dark Companion itself is almost equaled by Paladin of Tyranny's (who also gets a mount...) aura.

The thing is that the hexblade can have both via the obtain familiar feat so there's almost no reason not to take the dark companion ACF and take the obtain familiar feat later.

[JaronK]

Also, I keep thinking I should put Paladin of Tyranny in T4 anyway.   -2 to all saves for everyone nearby is quite nice, though it's only good if other people in your party make use of it.   Heck, Hexblade 4/PoT 3 is an awesome multiclass.  But yeah, the Hexblade just has some really useful spells that win out in the end.  Alter Self and Polymorph?  Heck yeah.

JaronK

[Empirate]

Five words: Sword of the Arcane Order...
Add in Battle Blessing and we have a winner, I'd say.

[ninjarabbit]

Five words: Sword of the Arcane Order...
Add in Battle Blessing and we have a winner, I'd say.

'
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The issue is the feats are good, not the class itself. A druid would still be tier 1 without natural spell, a wizard is still tier 1 even if the only feats he took were toughness 7x. The paladin without those specific feats (and SotAO is from an obscure campaign-specific splatbook) just isn't that great.

[Empirate]

I know. Yet how can we talk about the relative merit of classes if we don't take into account the options that are open to a class - especially if those options are more or less exclusive to said class? If we don't then "tier-ing" doesn't serve any practical purpose. In a non opimization-heavy game, these options may not be on the table. But we're trying to judge a class in a more general way here. So these options deserve a mention, even if we don't take their employ in any given campaign for granted. And that's what I was trying to do: ensuring powerful options, that go especially well with a certain class, don't go unmentioned.

[wotmaniac]

Well, I think the whole "tier" thing is primarily based on the strength of the class features (unless I've missed something).
That said, various options that can be tacked-on (i.e., feats, etc) are a whole other issue.
As I see it, in order to fully understand the tiers, you need to separate the class features from the options.  Not every paladin is going to be an "uber-charger" (though optimizers will typically go this route); every cleric has "righteous might".

[Anklebite]

the thing is, the tiers are based on a ceterus parabus principle; it is assumed everyone uses the same level of optimization. when the paladin is using battle blessing and SotAO, the duskblade is polymorphing. the power levels don't really compare.

[wotmaniac]

right -- exactly.

[Empirate]

Stop me if you think this discussion is going nowhere...

That said, at the optimization level the Paladin uses SotAO and Battle Blessing - he's Polymorphing as a swift action. How can the Hexblade counter that with a couple of class-specific feats?

[ninjarabbit]

Stop me if you think this discussion is going nowhere...

That said, at the optimization level the Paladin uses SotAO and Battle Blessing - he's Polymorphing as a swift action. How can the Hexblade counter that with a couple of class-specific feats?

Yeah you're doing that but look at the costs:
-You're spending 2 feats to do so and paladins are tight on feats
-You need a wis score of at least 14 to do so.
-You have to wait until level 14 if you have a wis score of 18 or level 15 if your wis score is 14, MAD issues
-You only have a CL of 7 normally unless you're a Mystic fire knight and/or you spend another feat or two on practiced spellcaster or minor shapeshift.


By comparison the hexblade:
-Can dump wis so he can put those points elsewhere
-Doesn't need to burn a feat to cast polymorph
-Has better action ecomony. By level 15 a hexblade can use a cure (free action), activate aura of unluck (free action), use minor shapeshift (swift action), and move his dark companion and familiar  on top of his normal actions.

[Empirate]

Still not convinced a Hexblade is straight up better... yet you make a powerful argument that maybe he plays, or at least is built, easier. And with the proper amount of optimization, he might be superior. OK, I will abandon this now in order not to derail the thread too much. Thanks for the interesting debate!