Author Topic: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.  (Read 66847 times)

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Surreal

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Re: Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5.
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2009, 05:00:13 AM »
"But I do love you."
That one works similar to auras; once they make the save, it doesn't affect them for 24 hours.

Alternatively, you may also treat it like a truespeak utterance, except the DC doesn't reset after a day. It's a cumulative +2 to the DC forever after each use, so be really careful when you use it.
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Akalsaris

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Re: Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5.
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2009, 05:07:05 AM »
It's worth noting that very few of the T5 classes are as hopeless or completely useless as it would seem from being so low on the range: 1-2 levels of monk is often worthwhile, 2-4 levels of fighter (6 with dungeoncrasher, but that's listed rightfully as T4), 1-3 levels of swashbuckler (or even taking it for 17-20 levels with daring outlaw), 1-6 levels of paladin (I like the greater dispel magic or celestial mount ACFs at 6th) are all probably good choices in many builds.  

I wish I could cover the Healer a little more, but JaronK did a great job of summing up why it's T5 (though as it is his system, that's not entirely unexpected!)  It's quite good at what it does (healing and removing status effects), but what it does simply isn't all that exciting or necessary for a large part of the game (levels 5-11, pretty much).  It's not useless by any stretch, but its main competition, the cleric, is so powerful that the Healer ends up looking much worse than it deserves.  In a party when the Healer is the only character with healing and useful spells like remove paralysis, etc., he'll feel quite useful to the party, but put him in the same party as an optimized cleric and the DM will be highly challenged to make that player feel like he's contributing anything useful.

The Knight:

Like the Healer, the Knight was designed to only fill a single role: tanking.  Unlike the Healer, tanking is at least a solid and useful role for the party from levels 1-20.  However, tanking is the only role that the Knight can fill well, as he has almost no damage-related abilities and no social skills except for Intimidate (like a fighter) and Knowledge (Nobility).  If he had been given 4 skills/level and Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive, the Knight's natural Charisma synergy would have helped him to be on par in that role with a paladin or a crusader - but unfortunately he isn't.  So he fits into T5 by virtue of lack of versatility - he does one thing quite well, but very little else.

Many of his feats and abilities are also slightly unfocused - he gets Mounted Combat and Ride, but no other mounted-related abilities; and he gets Shield Block but is unable to use tower shields.  In any encounter that needs a solid tank, he'll shine - unless that party already has a crusader, warblade, druid, binder, etc.  In encounters that don't require a tank (spell-casting opponents, archers, mass combat, traps, anything RP-related), the Knight will generally be of little help to the party as well.

ReaderOfPosts

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Re: Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5.
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2009, 09:52:11 AM »
It's worth noting that very few of the T5 classes are as hopeless or completely useless as it would seem from being so low on the range: 1-2 levels of monk is often worthwhile, 2-4 levels of fighter (6 with dungeoncrasher, but that's listed rightfully as T4), 1-3 levels of swashbuckler (or even taking it for 17-20 levels with daring outlaw), 1-6 levels of paladin (I like the greater dispel magic or celestial mount ACFs at 6th) are all probably good choices in many builds.  

Soda

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Re: Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5.
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2009, 12:38:46 PM »

juton

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Re: Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5.
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2009, 12:41:40 PM »
Rokugan Ninja

As a dip class it can be wonderful, full BAB and an increase to sneak attack or Int to Initiative at level 4. But a level 20 Rokugan Ninja is Tier 5 because its class features don't give it any more real options then an NPC Warrior. It can move faster than a Rogue and hit as hard, but with only 4+int skills and a worse skill list and a d6 hit die a Rokugan Ninja can't bring anything special to the table at higher levels.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2009, 12:51:00 PM »
By the way, can you remove that apostrophe?  Apostrophe misuse is a bit of a pet peeve of mine.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5.
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2009, 01:00:08 PM »
Added Endarire's Swashbuckler summary, Akalsaris's summary of the Knight and Juton's summary of the Rokugan Ninja. Also added Akalsaris's description on Tier 5 classes and dips to the top of the post.

If someone could link me the web enhancement, I will link it in the guide.

Quote
By the way, can you remove that apostrophe?

If you're talking to me, tell me which apostrophe and I will remove it.

Now that each class on this guide has a description, I'll be making the Tier 4 version. I'll continue to keep this one updated.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2009, 02:45:00 PM »
He means the apostrophe in the "Why Tier 5's are in Tier 5."

Unless you're using 5's as a possessive part of speech (and I don't think you are).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2009, 03:34:56 PM »
Fixed.

Surreal

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2009, 05:25:30 PM »
As an aside, isn't the use of apostrophes on numbers and abbreviations an unresolved issue? (ie: no standard accepted method)
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The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
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Zombieboots

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2009, 05:27:50 PM »
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 05:33:35 PM by Zombieboots »
Ah! Maddness. Thank you.[spoiler][/spoiler]

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2009, 05:36:01 PM »
the point is that tier 5 character have little to no redeeming factors. It takes a tremendous amount of effort to make them playable at all in a game in which the other players optimize to any real degree.

I can get away with a half-assed Tier 5 in the games i'm in because most of the players in those games play low tier classes and can't optimize at all. If i play a tier 3 i have to gimp myself to be on their level even if they are playing a tier 1. They either don't like or don't understand optimization and will gimp their own characters without realizing it. So in order for the game to be fun and not kill the DM i have to keep my character working on their level or risk the game blowing up.

Remember the tier system is to show what they are capable of mechanically under "normal" circumstances. If you play in a game with 15+ encounters a day then Warlock is a better choice than Wizard because the deck is stacked to his strengths.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2009, 08:05:01 PM »
Z-boots

Soulknife 1 / Wilder or PsyWar 19 , is waayyy superior to Soulknife 20. It's not even close.
Now don't get me wrong, carnivore can CO anything.

Monk 2 with Tashalatora feat / Ardent 18 , is waayyy superior to Monk 20. It's not even close.

Expert 1 vs. Rogue 1 , an argument could be made for Expert 1, in very very rare circumstances.
Expert 3+ vs. Rogue 3+ ... it's not even close.

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Surreal - I once upon a time, got a D- grade on this sentence: "It's its it."
The teacher had no sense of humor. At all.
Then I explained it to the Principal, and  got a better lunch, out of the deal.
Otherwise, yeah it's and its are unsettled. (therefore so is every other s or 's)
I hear Bruce Springsteen singing "Glory Days".


EDIT - oops, put the wrong [/i} after carnivore.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 07:46:25 PM by awaken DM golem »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2009, 08:13:36 PM »
.

Remember the tier system is to show what they are capable of mechanically under "normal" circumstances. If you play in a game with 15+ encounters a day then Warlock is a better choice than Wizard because the deck is stacked to his strengths.

Well, one of the powers of the wizard class is the ease of limiting your encounters/day (like with rope trick, for example)
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JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2009, 08:49:17 PM »
Actually, it's a good point that we should have the benefits of these classes, so here's a few.

Fighter:  One of the best non magical damage dealing classes, especially with regards to archery.  Though it requires a Barbarian dip to shine as a charger, their feats are useful for that too.  Fighters make excellent short dips for many non magic builds.  Fighters can also make very effective trippers, though Fighters can't really be effective at all of these at once (Fighters in general can be good trippers, chargers, and archers, but no one Fighter can be great at all of those).  Note that the Zhentarium Fighter is clearly Tier 4, mostly due to Imperious Command.

Healer:  Hey, they get Gate.  That's awesome when you finally get it.

Ninja:  They've got a few very cool class abilities... they're just upstaged by most of the other skill monkeys and have too many downsides.  But stuff like Ghost Mind is pretty cool, and if you don't have ToB their ability to phase through walls when needed is pretty handy for an infiltrator.  If you do have ToB, the Swordsage just does this better.

Expert:  Iajuitsu Focus makes these guys shockingly effective in combat for an NPC skillmonkey class.  Bust out the Gnomish Quickrazors and go to town... these guys can actually show up the CA Ninja at combat with some work (and party support).  Diplomacy and UMD can be very useful (if campaign dependent) skills.  And Autohypnosis is likewise a very handy skill to throw in there.  Sure, Factotums are pretty much strictly better, but if you wanted to play as an NPC class, this is one of the best (the Adept is better, but the Expert is still solid). 

Paladin:  The base class is quite lacking, but the variant Paladins can be quite useful.  Paladin of Tyranny is an awesome 3 level dip, for example, and combined well with Hexblade 4 (with Dark Companion).  Standard Paladin 2 is a lot of fun for Kobold Sorcerer gishes, who can take those levels and still have full caster progression (via Loredrake and the Greater Draconic Rite).  Note that the PrC Paladin is far stronger than the regular Paladin, though that's partly because it gives all of the useful Paladin abilities in just three levels while losing you only one caster level.  And Detect Evil at will can be very handy in some specific sorts of campaigns.

Knight:  Bulwark of Defense is awesome.  Too bad there's a maneuver that does basically the same thing, and most of the rest of their abilities are poor.  But Bulwark is awesome, and don't forget Diplomacy as a class skill.

CW Samurai:  This guy is high in Tier 6, possibly Tier 5, mostly for their incredibly cool level 10 ability.  Combined with Imperious Command you can lock down a battlefield if the enemy isn't immune to fear, especially if you've got 9 levels of Zhentarium Fighter.  Note that Dread Pirate 5 and Scarlet Corsair 5 give these same abilities (only with a better duration, making them far superior), but if you didn't want to be a pirate or oceans aren't in your game the Samurai is the only way to get AoE intimidation like that.  There's also potential for an Orc Warlord who's immune to fatigue combined with Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command.  Also, the CW Samurai does have Diplomacy as a class skill combined with Charisma synergy.

OA Samurai:  Basically a crappy Fighter, these guys get Ancestral Relic as a first level bonus feat without having to be good and diplomacy as a class skill, plus another good save, but they get fewer bonus feats off a smaller list.  They're a great one or two level dip.  Most importantly, they've got Iajuitsu Focus as a class skill, and that ability is very handy, especially if you PrC out into Iajuitsu Master.

Monk:  Though horrible as a long class, these guys are an awesome dip.  Monk 1, Monk 2, and Monk 6 are all solid break points, providing many bonus feats, full saves, and Wis to AC (which Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Genius can turn into Int to AC).  This class goes great with Shou Disciple, which progresses flurry and gives full BAB.  The class is heavily upstaged by the Unarmed Variant Swordsage, but it's still a solid dip.  Consider Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9 or Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Unarmed Swordsage 9 as solid examples of a fighting monk build.  Monk 1/OA Samurai 1/Warblade 8/Shou Disciple 5/Iajuitsu Master 5 is another solid build.  The combination of Sense Motive and Diplomacy on a wisdom based class can be very handy... our party will often back up the skill monkeys with a Monk during social encounters, with the monk using Sense Motive to watch the interaction.  Monk is also a solid dip with Druid, since you can use iterative attacks with your unarmed strikes while Wild Shaping, and Wis to AC is handy if you can't purchase a Monk's Belt.

JaronK

Surreal

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 10:12:58 PM »
Surreal - I once upon a time, got a D- grade on this sentence: "It's its it."
The teacher had no sense of humor. At all.
Then I explained it to the Principal, and  got a better lunch, out of the deal.
Otherwise, yeah it's and its are unsettled. (therefore so is every other s or 's)
I was referring to the use of 's on numbers and abbreviations, such as:
5's ... 5s
ABC's ... ABCs
etc.

I think in those instances there is no "proper" way to use the apostrophe.
---
"The late, sedate, and no to great." ~Surreal

Some Handy Links for CO Work (WotC 339 version) - a compilation of links for base/prestige class handbooks, tactics, spellcasting, character builds, D&D databases, etc.
Archived version of the above with working links

The Mango Index - a giant index for all things D&D and where to find them
The Mango List Reborn! - rehosted by KellKheraptis

Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
Polymorph, Wildshape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts) - side-by-side comparison of all the various form altering abilities
Alternative Class Features
alternative ways to get class skills

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 11:40:14 PM »
Updated sections to now have a pros section. All JaronK's posts were added to the guide, except the samurai descriptions, as there aren't any in Tier 5.  :) They will be ported to tier 6, when that thread is created. As it stands right now, I've back burnered it because most of them are NPC classes.

Also, my own grammatical errors don't bother me. I'll change it if someone tells me it's wrong, it really doesn't mean that much to me  ;)

Also, thanks a ton JaronK for adding the good sides to the classes.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2009, 01:02:54 AM »
As long as you don't say 'rouges,' 'irregardless,' or use |337-5p34k, and it's not full of horrific grammatical faux pas and hard to read, it's all good.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2009, 02:00:42 AM »
I figure, since it's obvious that one dual wields AK-47s, and not AK-47's, the rest of pluralization for compound structures ending in a numeral should follow.

Although I believe for single letters or numbers, it's most acceptable to use two apostrophes, thereby transforming them into a pair of single quotes.  Of the forms the following sentence could take, it seems fairly obvious which is the preferred.

When I eat alphabet soup, I enjoy b's, c's, and d's, but a's are my favorite.
When I eat alphabet soup, I enjoy bs, cs, and ds, but as are my favorite.
When I eat alphabet soup, I enjoy 'b's, 'c's, and 'd's, but 'a's are my favorite.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 5s are in Tier 5.
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2009, 03:22:16 AM »
When I eat alphabet soup, I play Scrabble (or just Bowling for Soup).
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]