Author Topic: Help me convince my party why Monks and Warlocks belong in the tiers they're in.  (Read 8428 times)

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Gr1lledcheese

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My 3.5 party will not let it go when I tell them monks aren't even good at their own role (front line fighter role: Damage dealt, damage absorbed). Someone help me out here. :banghead

Edit: Now that I have some more time I'll add a bit to this. Make note I've read no replies yet. My party was here when I posted this.

I know 2 and 6 level monk dips have their place. They're trying to convince me that monk 20 is incredibly good.

Also, one of them seems to think Warlocks are a Tier 1 class. As I posted below, help me give him a list of reasons why they aren't.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 08:19:32 PM by Gr1lledcheese »

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2009, 05:29:54 PM »
SirGiacomo's Monk Guide? :P

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Eldariel

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 05:51:57 PM »
...little context, please?

Ok, so straight Monks (do not forget that a two-level Monk-dip is pretty darn good for many builds, and Tashalatora-, Sacred Fist- and Druid-based builds all make fine "Monks") aren't good at their own role...their own role being?

They aren't exceptional tanks due to lowish HD, medium BAB, multi-attribute dependency (and thus comparably lower combat stats than melee monsters; this also hurts their supposed strengths in Grapple, Tripping & other combat maneuvers, along with Stunning Fist; all of those heavily reward straightforward dedication to a single stat over all else, and a Monk really can't pull that off), the fact that you can't combine their movement speed with Flurry (Flurry requires full attack, movement allows only one) and lack of weapon proficiencies (unarmed strikes getting decent dice later on, but lacking in special abilities and enhancing them costs a fuckton; oh, and no reach, no AoO-builds). Flurry is needed for them to do decent damage forcing them to ignore their speed boost in combat.

They aren't exceptional scouts due to lacking Trapfinding and having relatively low skill points and being unable to afford decent Int thanks to multi-attribute dependency (Hide/Move Silently/Tumble is all good, but if you don't have Trapfinding, scouting ahead in a hostile environment is like to get you killed).

They aren't exceptional mage killers (*chuckle*) because they really have nothing to especially threaten mages with. Just like every other warrior type, their movement is inferior to teleportation (once-per-day Dimension Door doesn't cut it), they have few if any ways to locate the mage and penetrate magical defenses (Mirror Image + Displacement + Blink: good luck hitting... Or Wall of Force) and they can't even reasonably use bows so their ability to act at range is infinitely diminished. Oh, and if they somehow manage to plop an Anti-Magic Field around themselves? They just gave up like 70% of their class features. Thanks to Greater Spell Penetration (in Core)/Assay Resistance (out of Core), their multi-attribute dependency, spells that ignore saves (even just good ol' Rays like Enervation/Scorching Ray/whatever, or Forcecages or something dumb), spells that trivialize touch AC (hello, True Strike!) and so on, all their magical defenses really add up to jack shit.

They aren't exceptional skirmishers due to not being able to Flurry with standard action and their speed bonus being enhancement thus, while probably being able to somewhat remain out of the harm's way with Spring Attack, not reducing the damage their allies take one bit and dealing negligible damage themselves. Indeed, this is the worst thing a Monk can do since it means the people who do the fighting are now taking all the beatdown while the Monk isn't contributing to the team's damage in any meaningful way either. In other words, the Monk isn't taking any hits and he isn't dealing any damage this way; thus he's as good as an empty slot in the party.


And overall, their class features kinda suck. Mostly, you can look at 'em like this:
-Flurry? That's nice! Now if only I were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I'd be doing a lot with my extra attacks on highest bonus!
-Improved Grapple/Trip/Stunning Fist/whatever? Nice! Now, if I only were able to focus on one stat and have full BAB, I could be landing these and winning the opposed checks!
-Speed boost? That's nice! Now, if I only could move and attack with my Flurry (which "almost" makes me equal to full BAB types), I could be doing something! Oh, and if this only stacked with magical speed boosts I'd actually be faster than the other classes.
-Unarmed Strikes? That's nice! Now, if I only got size increases or something so the damage dice would actually add up to something, and got 2x Power Attack returns and full BAB, this could add up to something!
-Ki Strikes? Nice, my unarmed strikes pretend to be weapons and get some minor abilities that almost replicate what my 1000gp weapon does! If only my WPL wasn't 100000...
-Slow Fall? So I get to replicate a 1st level spell by level 20? No? It only works next to walls? Well, almost replicate a 1st level spell!
-All this nice stuff, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Empty Body, I can replicate many kinds of spells poorly...once per DAY! Oh, make it Once per WEEK for that scary scary, broken Finger of Death With Save DC Derived Off Secondary Stat That Requires An Attack To Hit To Be Used.
-Oh, there's more? I get to replicate few more random low level spells? Cool. Oh, and Evasion? Yeah, nice, my Reflex-saves actually matter something! That's like...25k saved on the Ring.
-I get Spell Resistance? Just to ensure my team can't waste a Heal on me when I'm about to die? Cool!


Lack of synergy and multi-attribute dependency pretty much screw Monks up. Oh, and the good class features being limited to Very Few Uses Per Day. Seriously, if Monks had the ability to use Flurry whenever making an attack, if they got like Wis x uses of their now-daily abilities and the ability to use Dex for combat maneuvers, and Wis/Dex for damage, they'd be just fine. Grab Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Attack and they'd be able to go to town. As all those things are fucked up though, they don't. As I mentioned above, those multiclass builds easily sidestep these issues. Mono-classed Monks don't though.

Also, if this isn't on target, it's all because your question wasn't precise enough.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 06:17:35 PM »
:clap
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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Soda

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 06:23:27 PM »
Very nice. I'm not sure if there exists a document detailing these things (exactly why certain classes are subpar, and casters rule the roost), but this should be in it. I've gleaned it all in my years here, but there should be a primer.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 07:01:04 PM »
Because a druid's animal companion can pretty much do the same things a monk can do.

veekie

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 07:18:25 PM »
I think telling wouldn't work though.

Showing would. You wouldn't even need a 'power' class(well, any spellcaster probably would convince them the caster is broken, same with ToB, psionics or other "overpowered" stuff) or heavy optimisation, a standard build fighter, barbarian or rogue should be able to trump it at most of it's specialities with a smatter of magic items. I dare say getting nailed by a barbarian's fully power attacked hit or two is about equivalent with the quivering palm, only it works any time you want.
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Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 07:55:00 PM »
As I posted above, I have not read any replies yet. Added context to the above post. Sorry, but my party was right behind me when I posted the original.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2009, 08:16:47 PM »
Ok I've now read all the replies. Thank you, Eldariel for all the great info. Some of it I said, but a bunch of things you pointed out I had forgotten about. I'd give Fu if I could.

Next on my list, I want to show the party why the warlock is underpowered by comparison. A guy in our party thinks warlocks should be a tier 1 class, and I raddled off some reason why they aren't. I told him I would find more. This is another guy who thinks 20 levels of monk is awesome. So what about the Warlock?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Here's the deal with the warlock:

Their best invocations are equivalent to sixth level spells.  Spells double in power every two levels or so.  A warlock, therefore, is shooting bullets that are far less effective than the wizard's.  Staying power really doesn't matter at higher levels because at that point each attack is essentially save or die - would you rather like a bucket of rocks or one rocket launcher?

Time stop renders the warlock completely irrelevant for combat - the wizard already summoned a bunch of monsters in one turn, and is now shapechanged into a monster with better abilities and attacks than the monk.
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Emy

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2009, 08:33:03 PM »
Ok I've now read all the replies. Thank you, Eldariel for all the great info. Some of it I said, but a bunch of things you pointed out I had forgotten about. I'd give Fu if I could.

Next on my list, I want to show the party why the warlock is underpowered by comparison. A guy in our party thinks warlocks should be a tier 1 class, and I raddled off some reason why they aren't. I told him I would find more. This is another guy who thinks 20 levels of monk is awesome. So what about the Warlock?

I'm no expert on warlocks (in fact, unlike DFA, I've never played one), but you might find this thread relevant: Warlocks: Are they incredibly broken, and can they be fixed? (GitP)

and is now shapechanged into a monster with better abilities and attacks than the monk.

That's not a very flattering comparison.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Help me convince my party that monks are bad.
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2009, 08:38:31 PM »
and is now shapechanged into a monster with better abilities and attacks than the monk.

That's not a very flattering comparison.
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Braithwaite

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Make a warlock, an archer and a specialist wizard at the same level. Pick 4 (or eight) different monsters of that ECL. Have the monsters stand there while the ranged damage guys hurt them. See how many rounds it takes each class to kill the monsters. If you pick 8 monsters, let the wizard rememorise spells after 4 (usually 4 encounters per day).

Warlock will probably be last for most levels between about 6 and 20.

So a warlock is a (stand at range and put hurt on the target guy). The 2 most common classes at that role are both better at it than him. Argument over.

If they argue about how many more things the warlock can do than the archer, calculate the cost to duplicate the warlocks abilities. Ring of Invisibility-20 k, Flying carpet... eyes of charming ... Now ask them how much it will cost them to raise the warlocks damage to an amount equal to the archer. They cant. Priceless...

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I wouldn't compare them to an archer. Archers aren't great, and that might convince them that Warlocks are good because they are at least somewhat comparable.

Braithwaite

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But the wizard beats almost everyone at that test. That doesn't even prove that they aren't tier 1, because the wizard will beat the cleric in damage output or save or die availability at most levels.

Getting beaten in your specialty by a tier 4 or 5, on the other hand, proves something. Just make sure it is a reasonably well built archer, spend about 1/2 to 1/3 WBL on bow and arrows. And pick a range of monsters, some of whom have SR or effect immunity like undead.

ninjarabbit

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9d6 damage at level 20 with a standard action is just pathetic, especially if it's subject to spell resistance. Even 1d6 damage at level 1 isn't that good.

One limiting factor for invocations is that a warlock is only going to know 12 of them at the most through out his whole career, unless he wants to burn feats on extra invocation. Knowing only a handful of tricks gives you no flexibility when it comes to dealing with situations.

Generic_PC

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Warlocks are somewhat comparable to archers.


Remember the tier systems are based on how well a character will do in any situation. If you really want to prove this, get your group to have a series of 20th level characters, and see how well they do seperately. Make sure that someone who isn't biased plays a wizard or a druid. Make sure that others play a 20 Monk and a 20 Warlock. Go through an ECL appropriate dungeon with traps and things, and see who gets through first. Get people to use as many books as they want, as long as they do not multiclass. Let the wizard get as many spells as his wealth can buy him. Let any casters get divinations beforehand. I wouldn't be suprised if the Wizard gets through first, despite any and all encounters.

Remember, just because wizards CAN go nova and blow this many spell slots in one turn doesn't mean they should.
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Akalsaris

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Regarding warlocks, it also depends on how skilled you are at making characters, and the sources available.  A lock can compete decently well against a core archer or bard with just C Arc and core, but the more books you add, the more options there are for other classes that warlocks often can't take advantage of. 

It also depends on the encounters/day in the game - if you have 6+ encounters per day without wands of healing or tons of pearls of power and scrolls, then the warlock's staying power is much more useful.  But since 95/100 games aren't endurance slogs like that...

ninjarabbit

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Another thing is that the various reserve feats steal a lot of the warlock's thunder.

The Storm Bolt reserve feat alone pretty much outclasses eldritch blast since it requires no attack roll, hits multiple enemies, and isn't subject to spell resistance. Some other reserve feats like summon elemental, minor shapeshift, and dimensional jaunt are on par or even better than what a warlock can do with his invocations and the only cost to the spellcaster is a feat (or 3).

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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summon elemental, minor shapeshift, and dimensional jaunt are on par or even better than what a warlock can do
Hmm interesting. The first one sounds like a certain bag of furry critters  :), the next one is useless except for the temporary hit points (you can't shuffle damage off into the temporary hit points can you?), and dimensional jaunt is worse than having a semi-high movement speed (who wants to use up their standard action??)

Everyone knows wizards are too powerful... but I certainly hope its not from the reserve feats.

And Braithwaite you just hit the nail on the head. The 'usually 4 encounters per day' is letting the spellcasters off EASY. A good DM should have so many encounters, they are nearly afraid to blow their last highest level spell slot.

But yes monks are definately not in the same tier. Without heavy optimization some major common-sense DM ruling is required to make them... 'work'. Once this happens, though, they can be fun
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