A Practical Abuse of the CR System (Need help)

[EjoThims]

Nimblewright from MM2.

[Emy]

Nimblewights have the added advantage of being way cool.

[Runestar]

Let's not forget what we can do unassociated class levels. Take e.g. Choker (CR 2, 3 HD), add 18 levels of Cleric, you have a CR 11 monster with the ability to throw two 9th level spells per turn.

I am fairly sure that non-associated class lvs apply only up to the monster's base racial HD. So for a choker with 3 HD, only the first 3 cleric lvs would be treated as unassociated, the rest would be associated (and thus improve its cr at a 1:1 ratio). A choker cleric18 would be cr19 (base2, +2 from 1st 3 cleric lvs, +15 from the remaining 15).

The real abuse would come from combining spellcasting classes with monsters that have a lot of racial HD for their cr. For instance, a storm giant sorc20 would be cr24 (and have caster lv24 after factoring in practiced spellcaster). Walks over a vanilla human sorc24 npc any time. An elder elemental cleric24 would be cr23...

Thankfully, they are simply guidelines.

But you are right in that with its racial wis bonus, it makes for an excellent divine spellcaster. Ur-priest anyone?

-The multiple action abuse seems fun, being able to overcome the action disadvantage while still keeping things to a single monster is attractive. Does anyone know of any other monsters that has this ability? I know of the Choker, Thoon Elder Brain, Chronotyrin and have just learnt of the Sharn...

Nagahydra (serpent kingdoms), cr18, casts as sorc15, can cast up to 7 spells each round (1 per head).

Nilshai (unapproachable east), cr8?, casts as sorc8, also gets an extra standard action each round (I think).

The aspect of demogorgon (online web enhancement) gets 2 full rounds worth of actions each round, but has no spellcasting (so it is mostly just melee attacks).

Beholder can effectively get extra attacks if you interpret that if it hovers directly above the party and split them into 4 quadrants, then it can fire all 10 eye rays (assuming you aim no more than 3 at each quadrant).

You may also want to ensure that your bosses are able to take full advantage of the action economy (ie: make full use of move, standard, swift and interrupt actions where possible, leaving as little to waste as possible).

[Prime32]

Let's not forget what we can do unassociated class levels. Take e.g. Choker (CR 2, 3 HD), add 18 levels of Cleric, you have a CR 11 monster with the ability to throw two 9th level spells per turn.

I am fairly sure that non-associated class lvs apply only up to the monster's base racial HD. So for a choker with 3 HD, only the first 3 cleric lvs would be treated as unassociated, the rest would be associated (and thus improve its cr at a 1:1 ratio). A choker cleric18 would be cr19 (base2, +2 from 1st 3 cleric lvs, +15 from the remaining 15).

The real abuse would come from combining spellcasting classes with monsters that have a lot of racial HD for their cr. For instance, a storm giant sorc20 would be cr24 (and have caster lv24 after factoring in practiced spellcaster). Walks over a vanilla human sorc24 npc any time. An elder elemental cleric24 would be cr23...

I've said this one before:

Human wizard 48: CR 48
Tarrasque wizard 48: CR 44

[telehax]

I believe someone said that once you have more class levels than racial HD you should just make the RHD a non-associated "class" and the class levels the base CR.

In any case, with the shenanigans I pull with class levels, I'd *always* count them as associated due to synergy.

[Prime32]

I believe someone said that once you have more class levels than racial HD you should just make the RHD a non-associated "class" and the class levels the base CR.

Um, that works out the same.

CR 10 creature with 14 wizard levels = 10 +5 non-associated +4 associated = 19
Lv14 wizard with 10 Racial HD = 14 +5 non-associated = 19

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So, are there any CR ranges that are particularly lacking at the moment?

And are bosses allowed to summon allies?

[EjoThims]

Nimblewrights have the added advantage of being way cool.

Nah, they're ice cold. 

They also have a stupid list of at will spell likes and a redonculous crit range.

[telehax]

So, are there any CR ranges that are particularly lacking at the moment?

And are bosses allowed to summon allies?

Currently, CRs 6, 7, 9 and 11-20

They can summon them if they have actual abilities that do so, else it adds to the CR.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

For the CR 6 or 7, take a decent level 5 character and give them a level or two of the ghost savage progression.  Incorporeality hurts at low levels, and if you choose telekinesis as the minor ghost power, that's twelve attack rolls / d4+1 rounds with whatever weapon suits your fancy (from 1 damage, with fine shuriken, up to 4d6 each, with colossal sianghams).  High mobility can compensate for fewer actions. 

I'd hate to cut in on the nimblewright, though.  That's a pretty awesome CR 7.


The mistling template allows for creation of a living spell 1/day from any spell/spell-like available.  Add a pool with a large misty waterfall to the next arena, and use a CR 9 mistling nymph.  I'm sure you can find a level 4 druid spell that would be dangerous when used every round.

[telehax]

Sadly, nimblewrights are probably a bad idea vs a Dragonfire Adept.

Does anyone think a monster capable of summoning a shadow 7+ times a day at CR 6 is too overwhelming?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Sadly, nimblewrights are probably a bad idea vs a Dragonfire Adept.

Does anyone think a monster capable of summoning a shadow 7+ times a day at CR 6 is too overwhelming?

Depends.  Can anyone hit incorporeal opponents?  Or heal ability damage?  Because once the party wizard who dumped strength goes down, it tends to cascade.

[telehax]

I doubt any of them will gain it by level 4, sadly, except the cleric's cures.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You should probably hold off on multiple incorporeal opponents until they're better prepared.

A single incorporeal opponent is fine as soon as they have magic weapons.  A permanent 50% miss chance helps to narrow the action gap a little.

[Paradox]

Isn't there a low level spell that ignores incorporeal miss chance? I think it may bestow the ghost touch property in fact.

[Runestar]

cr9 - medusa with the ghost template. Move in and out of walls and floors while blasting the PCs with 4 save-or-something-really-crap-happens abilities every round. And as a bonus, it is already statted for free on the wotc website (or in libris mortis).

[telehax]

A while back someone suggested auras as an alternative for extra actions. Does anyone know of any particularly good ones? By "aura" I include things which activate as free/swift actions. Preferably auras that can be stacked.

Of course, unseelie fey is probably one of the best auras, but if I include more than one of these it quickly gets old..

[Caelic]

Earth glide plus Spring Attack can be rather nasty, especially given how many of the monsters with Earth Glide tend to focus on one big attack rather than many small attacks.

[Surreal]

Incorporeality and swarms are pains for anybody unprepaired, doubly so at low levels. I once threw a couple low HD swarms (maybe 30hp) at a relatively optimized L8-10 party and it tied them up for almost ten rounds. I did negligible damage, but the distractions and poisons racked up enough that when my bruiser came charging through they were in a lot of trouble (nearly tpk actually).

[ksbsnowowl]

The infamous Fleshraker is CR 2. Wasn't there an incorporeal swarm of relatively low CR?

Ephmereal Swarm, I think it's called.  Undead rats, from MMIII, CR 5.

About the unassociated class levels - they only count as 1/2 CR until there are more class levels than other HD, then they become associated.

Half-troll (FF) War Trolls are nasty, as they have both regeneration and fast healing, which effectively gives them Regeneration 14, until all their nonleathal damage is gone, and then it will heal any acid damage they have with their fast healing 5.  It also gives them Rend, which they normally don't have.  They are only CR 14.  Instead making it a Shadow Creature (Lords of Madness) would make it CR 13.  With a Half-troll one you could add Primordial Giant (SoX) to give it invisibility at will.  It still ends up with boosts to Con and Str over the base War Troll.