PvP Spells

[mans0011]

So I'm trying to figure out the best spell to really focus on for a PvP situation as a level 17 Wiz/Incantatrix build. What kinds of things will people of 17th ECL be defending against and what kinds of things bypass those sorts of defenses?

I'm thinking a lot of people will have mindblank up, so ray of stupidity is probably out, unless I can shatter a mindblank.

People will also probably have spell resistance. So I either need to be able to overcome that with no problem or use spells that don't allow for SR (like the orbs).

What about negative energy? Is there a way to make it difficult for people to use enervation on you (other than Ray Deflection and 50% concealment/etc).

Would Kaleidoscopic Doom (Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's ultimate ability) be useful for stripping people's buffs?

Does greater dispel magic/stronger dispelling effects bypass spell mantle or matrix or whatever makes it impossible for you to hurt them with spells?)

Any thoughts? Does this post just full of rambling?

[Eldariel]

Kaleidoscopic Doom is indeed awesome simply because all the relevant opponents are buffed to high heavens. That said, if you are an Incantatrix, I don't see you fitting 7 levels of Initiate without weakening your character. And yeah, Dispelling is the key; it penetrates the commonly available means of defense (I don't think Spell Mantles exist within WoTC 3.5 rules; either way, they should collapse under Greater Dispel Magics or Disjunctions if all else fails) and enables you to get through.

As for forms of attack, as a Wizard you can afford some versatility. It's generally a good idea to pack Orbs - Enervation is stopped by negative energy immunity or simply if your opponent happens to be undead (Necropolitan or Lich, e.g.) in addition to SR and ranged touch. I wouldn't also worry about Spell Resistance all that much; as long as you keep your caster level up there, getting a relevant amount of spell resistance is a lot of work and generally only available through the spell named "Spell Resistance", which gets dispelled among the rest of them. That said, Orbs ignoring SR is a nice bonus.


Force Walls and such are a pretty handy tool - nothing stops targeted attacks like breaking line of effect. Maw of Chaos is quite possibly the best attack in PvP; it's unstoppable damage (other than by being a chaotic outsider) after which it requires a save. If they fail, they'll get damaged again. You should naturally pack means to hit any save lethally; some manners of domination, some manners of death spells and whatever you can scrounge up for Reflex-save should all be around for when the chance comes up to hit someone's weak save.

Mostly though, simple damage along with dispelling is the most reliable way to attack in high-level caster vs. caster combat simply because being immune to everything is so easy. The good news is that you're a Wizard; you can afford to prepare a huge array of different types of offense. Summons and callings are definitely something to keep in mind too; when it comes to opponent being v. hard to affect yourself, Gating in a Great Wyrm Gold or some Abominations can do quite a bit for you, as can just summoning Dispel bots and simple attackers while you negate the opponent's mobility.

[mans0011]

So you would suggest an initiate build vs an incantatrix build?

[archangel.arcanis]

i would say it depends on the level and if it is 1v1 or team v team.  Incant* does better in a team while I7V has excellent debuff and defensive capabilities that come into play a touch sooner, if i recall the reqs for it right.

I mean really if you want to trash someone get your saves stupid high and take out their defense vs mind effecting and cast hold person/monster then proceed to coup de gras them until the die or escape then repeat if escaped. there are obviously other ways but that is the simplest one off the top of my head that had nothing to do with a specific build type.

[Caelic]

The really critical thing about the IoSV in a PvP context is that he ALWAYS has an answer to what the enemy is going to throw--and he can respond as an immediate action.  That's hugely important, IMO; when fighting other PCs at that level, it's a duel of rocket launchers.  What matters isn't having the biggest rocket launcher; what matters is either:

a. Shooting first, or
b. Wearing a rocket-proof vest.

The IoSV is the closest thing in the game to a rocket-proof vest.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The really critical thing about the IoSV in a PvP context is that he ALWAYS has an answer to what the enemy is going to throw--and he can respond as an immediate action.  That's hugely important, IMO; when fighting other PCs at that level, it's a duel of rocket launchers.  What matters isn't having the biggest rocket launcher; what matters is either:

a. Shooting first, or
b. Wearing a rocket-proof vest.

The IoSV is the closest thing in the game to a rocket-proof vest.

Option C: having over ten thousand hit points, and being in an AMF.  Not that I'm planning on doing that... 

[ErhnamDJ]

Look at the "beating a caster" threads. Use what that wizard uses. If you can use prebuffs, start shapechanged into a choker. Have as many familiars as you can get. Use Craft Contingent for as many Miracles as possible. You really should be immune to everything you can think of. If it's something you want to try on someone else, they have thought of it too. Be immune to that.

[Negative Zero]

If you can be incorporeal in an AMF, that's a very nice start.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you can be incorporeal in an AMF, that's a very nice start.

What happens if a ghost casts AMF?

The AMF activates, which causes the ghost to wink out, so the AMF winks out, so the ghost reappears, so the AMF activates...

[mans0011]

Hmmm. Well, I'm looking at the ECL 17 build for the PBP pvp arena thread. So a lot of that stuff will be out of the question. I am pretty certain that it's 1v1 combat. If that's the case, Initiate is probably the best bet. So then, here's the real rub: Do we go the Wizard 2/Master Specialist 8/Initiate 7 route or is MS not worth it? If MS is worth it, do we exit before 8? If we go MS, do we specialize in Abjuration? If we don't go MS, do we pick focused specialist Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt? Basically, what is the optimized ecl 17 Initiate build?

[BowenSilverclaw]

Why not fit in Incantatrix for at least 3 levels? Shouldn't be a problem and it's pretty damn house...

[Endarire]

Archmage may be spiffy for 1 level for a shaped AMF.

[ninjarabbit]

Another option out of left field is the swiftblade: effectively time stop as a free action, haste that cannot be dispelled by any means including AMF, 50% concealement and 50% chance of any targeted spells failing against you, arcane reflexes, freedom of movement while hasted, and effectively 3.0 haste giving you an action ecomony edge.

[anomalousman]

Archmage may be spiffy for 1 level for a shaped AMF.

Since they don't block line of effect, that will only stop summoned creatures and the like.

[Negative Zero]

Or you could get within 10 feet of them with the AMF up.

[Vinom]

Polymorph any object, target the air above him, and turn it into a huge deadly creature...

[Negative Zero]

Polymorph Any Object the ground beneath his feet into a bunch of water bottles made out of Francium, if you want to use PaO shenanigans.

[Omen of Peace]

Don't forget about Spell Turning and the like (you wouldn't want Kaleidoscopic Doom turned back on you, would you ?).

The thing is, until you've Disjuncted your enemy it's hard to know how to approach things. And Disjuncting him may not even be that easy: between illusions (with the Shadow Weave feats to make them harder to pierce ?), immediate actions and contingencies you can have enough trouble...

[Vinom]

Polymorph any object, the air around them into rpure thunderstones...

[Caelic]

Option C: having over ten thousand hit points, and being in an AMF.  Not that I'm planning on doing that... 

Well, sure, Persistent Consumptive Field rocks.  But some things don't care about hit points, and other things can take down an AMF.