Author Topic: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources  (Read 4498 times)

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anomalousman

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I'm building a combatant for an arena, and the rules severely limit the number of sources.  Some of the worst things are banned, but spellcasters still seem the best option.  There are a lot of gishes, but I think I'd like to try clean spell-slinging.  I'm trying to build someone for the LA+0 group, and the best (non banned) option I could think of was the dragonwrought kobold sorcerer.  The Loredrake is banned, but the Draconic Rite of Passage is still available.

So that's the core of the build.  Dragonwrought venerable sorcerer with draconic rite of passage to help him keep up with the prepared casters.

Sorcerer            // Something with BAB and skills       (Dragonwrought / Draconic Rite of Passage / Metamagic Sorcerer)
Sorcerer            // Kobold Paragon                   
Kobold Paragon      //                                  (Draconic Reservoir)
Kobold Paragon      //
Sorcerer            //                                  ( / Greater Draconic Rite of Passage)
PrC                 
PrC                 

Normally, the rest of the build would be a grab bag of the best optimisation elements, but there's a snag...

I can only use one more book outside the core three, and I was hoping to use the Spell Compendium.  And the Magic Item Compendium.  And I haven't yet chosen a PrC.  I can only use one more PrC and two more base classes.  If I can drop that down to only one base class then I can use two more sources.  If I give up on the Kobold Paragon, then I can use two more PrCs (it counts as one), but I won't get any extra sources to take them from.

So:  does anyone have any suggestions for what sources I should use / PrCs and base classes I should take?

We get max HP/HD, so there's a bias towards classes with large HD.

Also, I'd like any advice on spells/feats/magical items.  I don't want to forget any of the standard tricks.

Frostburn:  Shivering Touch
PGtF:       Initiate of Mystra, Incantatrix
MIC:        All sorts of gear, Runestaff (very expensive), Ring of Darkhidden
SpC:        Orb spells, Bite spells
HoHorror:   Fiend-blooded
PHBII:      Arcane Thesis
UA:         Flaws, Cloistered Cleric
CompChamp:  Domain Feats


Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2009, 06:30:38 AM »
edit: totally failed my spot check for "gestalt"
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anomalousman

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2009, 10:14:16 AM »
Yeah, it looks like it really opens up the options, but I'm not sure I can easily take them.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2009, 10:20:33 AM »
Well, Incantatrix (PGtF) is always nice, as are those PrC's that add spells known, like Sand Shaper (Sandstorm, loses a CL though) and Wyrm Wizard (Dragon Magic, I think that also loses a CL)...

"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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mans0011

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2009, 07:44:41 PM »
Divine Oracle is pretty delicious, too. Not amazing, but some handy little bits of delicious.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

anomalousman

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2009, 08:24:20 PM »
I can't see Sand Shaper gaining me many spells that I actually need besides Dispel Magic, and that's benefit neutral.  The lost spell level doesn't matter, of course, since I have another whole branch of the gestalt that I haven't used yet.  Wyrm Wizard doesn't actually increase spells known, as far as I can tell.  It just increases the class list.  And again, if cleric spells meant so much to me, I could just take cleric on the other side.

If there are no good ideas for the other base class, I think I could go worse than straight cleric.

Incantatrix is a good choice.  It requires PGtF, however, so I need to tighten up my base classes.

Should I just take cleric?

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 12:25:52 AM »

I would try to play up the charisma synergy. Can you get the feat from Dragonlance that allows you to use Charisma for (part of) cleric spellcasting?

You already have Unearthed Arcana. Can you do cleric into prestige paladin? Maybe snag a few divine feats from somewhere? You'd have a lot of turn undead uses.

anomalousman

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 01:27:38 AM »
Yes, I've been trying to.  I'll have a look at prestige paladin.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 03:25:10 AM »
And Cleric + Prestige Paladin + Battle Blessing might be yummy, depending on your DM...
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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DavidWL

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 06:07:54 AM »
An extra source is worth a lot - drop the extra base classes - just use Sorcerer and something that will make you toughter (Paladin is a good choice).

Sorcerer 20 / Paladin 20 is now our base.

Player's Guide to Faerun -> Incantatrix, Hathran, Persistent Spell

Sorcerer 5/Incantatrix 10/ Hathran 5 \\ Paladin 20

Now you have used up your 2 prestige classes and your 1 base class, but you have 1 free source left!  Pick whatever you like!

Option 2:
Dwoemerkeeper.

Best,
David

P.S.  What level is this area playing at?
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 06:11:40 AM »
Change the Paladin side into Cleric/Prestige Paladin with Battle Blessing? :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Ithamar

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2009, 08:31:17 PM »
Nope, Battle Blessing cheese won't work.  (I should know, I'm the DM. ;))
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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2009, 06:03:44 AM »
DMM (Quicken) it is! :P
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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Ithamar

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2009, 02:28:03 PM »
Make sure to save some of those turn attempts for the 4 or 5 undead gladiators floating around the arena though.
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anomalousman

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 08:40:42 PM »
The arena starts at level 9, and will go most of the way, I think.  XP-requiring spells are banned, as are certain game-breakers.  Also, there's no incorporeality, slightly devaluing those templates.
 
Design Principles:
I have become convinced that arena-appropriate power in gestalt is gained through breaking some mechanic.  (I can talk freely about breakage - it's an arena, after all.)

Full spellcasting is obviously near broken normally.  In gestalt you can be tempted to gish (which you can't otherwise), or dual spellcast.  I think both of those are weaker options than just making the full spellcasting rather irresistible.  Sorc + Paladin is good.  Sorc + Pixie/Gravetouched Ghoul/Evolved 14  for +36 Charisma is better.  Immensely better.  Even a splash of paladin for Divine Grace isn't obviously better than taking a spell that does it for me, because the spell version gives me +2 saves (and +2 DCs and so on).  I can get Cha to just about anything I want by some feats, equipment and spells.

...so I'm thinking about trying to max out charisma using one side of the gestalt.  Another casting stat would work about as well, but I suspect Charisma is easiest to max.  Plus, it helps out with the odd SLA generated by LA.

So...   Sorc 20 (or equivalent) plus,

Pixie/Gravetouched Ghoul/Evolved   = +36 Charisma, undead, small (in the late game) other benefits
Nixie/Gravetouched Ghoul/Evolved   = +40 Charisma, undead, smaller other benefits.
Succubus/??                                   = +16 Charisma and 8 free LA.

Can you do better than that?

I can take racial HD advancement on anything, but that's not immensely strong even on a dragonwrought kobold, who gets: +1 BAB, good saves, +1 NA, +1/6 mental stats, +1/3 str&con, and +2/3 sorcerer casting level.  It's good, but not immensely strong because it's hard to generate gestalt-level save DCs with only +9 Charisma at level 18, so that huge caster level is hard to utilise.   A maximised 34d6 wings of flurry is still zero damage if they make the save (everyone'll have evasion somehow).



BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2009, 05:22:58 AM »
Slap on Phrenic for some decent SR, +4 Charisma and some useful PLA's :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2009, 11:59:40 PM »
Slap on Phrenic for some decent SR, +4 Charisma and some useful PLA's :)
If he's doing what I think he's doing, all psionic powers are banned, as are, IIRC, templates.
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DavidWL

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2009, 06:28:47 AM »
The arena starts at level 9, and will go most of the way, I think.
Design Principles:

Ah.  I didn't realize you could play strange races - my bad.

In that case, a Sharn would be great!  It's inability to polymorph becomes irritating at high levels, but since you're starting at level 9, it's really a wonderful fit!

See this link for the incredible abilities of a sharn:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18445244&postcount=7

In general, there is no reason not to play some sort of awesome monster given your ruleset.

Other thoughts:
- Yak Folk are cool - possesses something with it (take leadership and go to town)
- Similarly with Fiends of possession
- See my signature

Gloura give you Cha to all and a good charisma boost, along with Bardic spellcasting
A black ethergaunt \\ incantatrix would be a sight to behold.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

anomalousman

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2009, 11:37:30 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions. 

Psionics are out, or Phrenic would have gone on first.
I already tried Sharn, but was cruelly rebuffed... :)
You don't get any racial features until you've spent the requisite racial HD and LA.  Starting at level 9, a black ethergaunt would have a hard time getting to level 20, where its class features would start  :/

I'll check out the others, though.

I don't know Yak folk, Gloura or Fiends of Possession.


skydragonknight

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Re: Gestalt Dragonwrought Sorcerer but with limited number of sources
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2009, 12:26:41 AM »
Sure you want a Sorc? My own creation is a monster at arena fights and Gestalt makes it even more evil.

Wizard(with Evocation as a known school)//Factotum(DS) with Manyjaws(SpC), Knowledge Devotion(CC), Eager weapons(MIC). Also Either Quicken Spell or Circlet of Rapid Casting(MIC).

Font of Inspiration is not necessary: even one extra standard action in an encounter should be enough against any opponent. Empowered Spell Shards are also optional, but don't cost an extra source.

You'll be using Quickened Magic Missles and Manyjaws as your main offensive.

Confused? Read Manyjaws. Notice there's up to 10 separate damage rolls. Read Magic Missle: 5 separate damage rolls. Knowledge Devotion can give up to +5 damage to every damage roll you make. Eager weapons can give +2 damage to every damage roll you make in the surprise round and the first round of combat in addition to the nice initiative bonus. So each of those d6s are 1d6+7 and each of those d4s are 1d4+8.

Also, your Int goes to Initiative in addition to your Dex thanks to Factotum so you're almost guaranteed to win initiative and deal 9d6+63 damage with your standard actions and 5d4+40 damage with your swift action. Manyjaws allows a save for half...which is why you have the backup of three Magic Missle castings which deal a combined total of 15d4+120 without worrying about Evasion.
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