Author Topic: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)  (Read 5793 times)

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afroakuma

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2009, 11:47:42 PM »
That's the sort of dick move he likes, so it works out well.

I'm a bit reluctant on the alternate sorc levels because they hit him hard in the Spells Known area.

ThoughtS?

Rebel7284

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2009, 12:42:49 AM »
That's the sort of dick move he likes, so it works out well.

I'm a bit reluctant on the alternate sorc levels because they hit him hard in the Spells Known area.

ThoughtS?

You can always buff with wands and stuff and have a wand chamber in your weapon and keep spells known for essential in-combat spells.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

afroakuma

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2009, 01:59:47 AM »
True, very true...

Alright, well I'll look into the double alternated sorcerer levels. What else can be done to improve this build (feat selection? class levels? spell selection?)

skydragonknight

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2009, 02:28:55 AM »
I made a comment on Bladedancer earlier. Full BAB, good Ref and a single dip gives Monk Unarmed Damage and Cha to AC. It's a Base Class from Dragon Compendium which may or may not count as a D&D "book" depending on personal opinion(officially it is; though the material is selections from Dragon Magazine).

Other advice...Headband of Conscious Effort(MIC) is a must to fix his Fortitude issues. Replace Fort save with Concentration check 1/day. Say "no" to Save-or-Lose.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Rebel7284

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2009, 04:37:30 AM »
True, very true...

Alright, well I'll look into the double alternated sorcerer levels. What else can be done to improve this build (feat selection? class levels? spell selection?)

Feats: Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Versatile Spellcaster
Spells (either known or from items): Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Wraithstrike, Greater Mirror Image, Arcane Fusion, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Ray of Stupidity, Enervation, Alter Fortune, Haste, Dispel Magic, Grease, True Strike, Invisibility, Alter Self, Polymorph
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Brainpiercing

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2009, 11:11:58 AM »
As a gish, eventually you should add one spell from the Bite of X series, which could be either Bite of Wererat early on or Bite of the Werebear later.
I see a good application for Flame Whips, too. Share with a familiar and get 4 Touch attacks for 6d6 each, no SR, no save.

afroakuma

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2009, 11:45:14 AM »
He traded his familiar for an extra feat. I'll look into the Dragon Compendium on that class.

afroakuma

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2009, 01:06:19 PM »
Alright, I've looked over everything, and I'm not really sure about the warblade level.

Since I'd only be taking one level, it doesn't seem to offer much of value in terms of maneuvers and stances, and would cost me a feat for Armor Proficiency (Heavy) to get the spellsword level.

So warblade is 3 maneuvers and 1 stance of questionable utility as well as -1 feat and +1 to Reflex. Fighter is +1 feat.

As for battle sorcerer/stalwart sorcerer, since I don't need the weapon proficiency I've considered brewing an alternative that doesn't lose spells known and doesn't get armor or weapon proficiency. I'm okay with losing spell/day, since Meridius can always pick up extra Charisma.

Any other suggestions, esp. for higher levels?

SorO_Lost

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2009, 01:37:54 AM »
Other than it being an entirely different character build. Sublime Chord makes an excellent optimal gish when your looking at the higher levels.

Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 4?
Sorcerer 6 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7?
Sorcerer 5 / Warblade 1 / Emerald Jade Phoenix 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Ruathar 1 / MindBender 1 / Ruthar +2?

On a side note, why do you need spellsword at all? -10% ASF when your wearing 0% asf greater luminous armor (grants as much as +5 full plate) is a little redundant. Take advantage of your Abjurant Champion's class abilities, save the GP of wearing +10 armor, etc.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2009, 02:41:54 AM »
A vilain is unlikely to know sanctified spells :). With that said, doesn't one of the sorcerer variants allow for light armor?  Even if not mithral twilight chain works regardless of proficiency.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

afroakuma

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2009, 01:24:50 PM »
Other than it being an entirely different character build. Sublime Chord makes an excellent optimal gish when your looking at the higher levels.

I would, except that I already have one of those.

Quote
Sorcerer 6 / Swiftblade 10 / Abjurant Champion 4?

Loses 4 caster levels; that's kind of rough, especially for a sorcerer. That class is nuts, though.  :D

Quote
Sorcerer 6 / Fighter 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 7?

I want to keep away from Eldritch Knight if at all possible; it's always seemed brutally weak.

Quote
Sorcerer 5 / Warblade 1 / Emerald Jade Phoenix 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Ruathar 1 / MindBender 1 / Ruthar +2?

JPM loses one caster level, but otherwise wouldn't be too bad. Ruathar he won't qualify for.

Quote
On a side note, why do you need spellsword at all? -10% ASF when your wearing 0% asf greater luminous armor (grants as much as +5 full plate) is a little redundant. Take advantage of your Abjurant Champion's class abilities, save the GP of wearing +10 armor, etc.

Spellsword was recommended to me for the +1 BAB and +1 to spells at 1st level, so I just wanted the dip.

Emy

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2009, 03:54:50 PM »
I'm a bit reluctant on the alternate sorc levels because they hit him hard in the Spells Known area.

ThoughtS?

Runestaffs -- they're great.

Negative Zero

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2009, 03:58:39 PM »
Knowstones are great, but from a Dragon Mag.

afroakuma

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2009, 07:55:14 PM »
I'm liking the runestaff idea...  :D

Still shuts down slots, but wands, Charisma and the BBEG's privilege help out there.

Alright, so a few things to play around with. Any other recommendations?

Negative Zero

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2009, 08:12:47 PM »
H: Power! Unlimited POWER!

[spoiler]
Ways of beating the system

The most effective way is to use Limited Wish to duplicate Psychic Reformation, as described in the thread.

I also like Mage of the Arcane Order's Spellpool, Runestaves, and Knowstones.

That Damn Sorcerous Kobold: The Netkobolitan Menace
The Mailman: A Direct Damage Sorcerer
[/spoiler]

I'd recommend looking through that handbook anyway. It's a great resource, even if just for laughs.

sofawall

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Re: An Optimal Gish (who is also a fish!)
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2009, 04:39:47 AM »
Doc Rock has a great resource over on Gleemax for more spells known as a sorcerer.