Author Topic: Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort  (Read 12700 times)

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VennDygrem

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Gestalt Warlock-Spellthief with Cleric Cohort
« on: May 12, 2009, 03:22:33 AM »
So I, too, am playing in the Fall of Sharn PbP game being DM'd by Sinfire Titan. As a refresher, here are the houserules:

  • Limited Gestalt: Gestalt is allowed, but by tier. (For reference, JaronK's 'Tier System for Classes' Thread)
    Tier 1's are on their own. Tier 2 can gestalt with NPC classes only. Tier 3 can gestalt with Tier 4 and lower, Tier 4 with 3 and lower, etc. Beguiler, however, is considered Tier 2; Totemist is tier 3, Incarnate between 2 and 4 depending on optimization, soulborn is obviously tier 5.
    One side is primary, and one side is secondary. This means that one class must be used all the way through; For instance, Warblade 20//Barbarian 2/Totemist 8/Totem Rager 10
  • 43 PB, starting level is 7 (XP is halfway between 7 and 8 ); Action points are allowed
  • 2 Flaws (however, achievable between 1st and 4th level); No traits
  • Standard WBL (19000 for ECL 7)
  • All characters get Heroic Spirit as a bonus feat, and another open bonus feat at level 10.
  • Non-Eberron campaign settings are banned material, with the exception of Oriental Adventures (effectively Sarlona, with some modifications). Specifically out is FR and DL content.
  • And more on a case-by-case basis (For instance, Supernatural Transformation can be applied to Eldritch Blast).

----Old Stuff----
[spoiler]
So I decided I wanted to try making something that's usually not very versatile to be more-so. For instance, Barbarians are always melee brutes, great chargers, usually terrible if things get primarily ranged. Warlocks are good at range, and except for a well-optimized Glaivelock, are terrible in melee. However, when you get chocolate in my peanut butter...

Well, this isn't quite that simple. However, I've been looking at using RobbyPants' Rebalanced Barbarian as a Tier 3 class (and have wanted to try it since I first saw it), which means tier 4 and below is good for Gestalting. I've also wanted to try a Warlock for the longest time, but usually it's not worth it. Gestalted, however, I could choose between being a Barbarian with some nice buffs and some nice abilities, or a Warlock with d12 hit dice and full BAB. It also makes for a great glaivelock opportunity.

Wall-o-Text hidden for logical reasons.
[spoiler]Sinfire has stated that he is allowing Supernatural Transformation to apply to invocations (taken separately for each power), including eldritch blast. This means, among other things, I can use it while raging, as it no longer is a power ruled by concentration, and does not provoke AoO's. At first I thought like everyone new to Warlock does, "Hey, that would be great for Hideous Blow!" However, I woke up from that dream and remembered it's still only one attack per round, though admittedly since it no longer provokes AoOs and can be used for much more damage than the standard warlock, it could be... ok, used by a barbarian. Still not sure if it's as good as a regular barbarian with multiple attacks using power attack and a two-handed weapon. At level 7 with a greatsword, that's... 2d6 (7) + 4d6 (14) + 9 str (assuming 18 str and raging for 22 str) + 14 PA = 44 damage vs. (2d6 (7) + 9 str + 14 PA)x2 = 60 total damage, though that's assuming both attacks hit. Better single hit, worse potential damage. That is, until I add haste into the mix, making Attack 1 = Hideous Blow = 44 dmg, + Attack 2 = regular attack = 30 dmg = 74 dmg. ---Edit--- But then again that's only until I get 3 attacks per round. But I digress.

Anyway, the class combination, if fully developed to both sides, is feat starved and MAD. So, I figure there are some things I can trim the fat on. I'll keep an ok Cha score in case I want any invocations with saves, and if I need to be the party face (and I might), and of course for UMD. STR will be decent, but rage will help keep it from being quite as vital. Dex will be ok for skills, bonus to AC, and for the odd time I need to use EB as a ranged attack. Con will obviously be high to absorb hits. The party I'm apparently on has a Shifter Totemist//Barbarian/fighter/weretouched master (eventually bear warrior and warshaper too), a Psion (egoist)//Samurai, some sort of dragon-themed character, and me. I'm not as worried about not having a healer since I'll have good hit points, thp, the egoist's empathic transfer, and my UMD for wands of vigor and such. Hopefully I won't die too often, we'll see.  :rollseyes

Anyway, so I'm having trouble truly optimizing this. If my idea works out, doing something along the lines of RP's Barbarian 20//Warlock 16/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3 and using Eldritch Glaive or something should yield some good old-fashioned damage. (Now that I think about it, was it ever ruled whether you can power attack with EG?)
But that's just the thing. The idea is only half-formed. I've got no idea on race, whether or not to bother with a template like Feral for goodies (but at the cost of levels), what weapon combo to attack with, etc. I know DfA synergizes better, but it has fewer invocations and no eldritch glaive.

So far, with 43 PB, level 7, and no racial or template adjustments, I can have stats at:
Str 18, Dex 14, con 18, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 14

As for feats, Power Attack is a given, Supernatural Transformation will be required at least once for Eldritch Blast (and more if there are any good in-combat invocations, but most of them won't be necessary). Other than that, it's mostly up in the air.
[/spoiler]
My question is: Can this be viable? Can I optimize this? Or should I give up and seek some other avenue?[/spoiler]
----New Stuff----

New concept on page 3.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 02:44:26 PM by VennDygrem »

Prime32

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 09:01:32 AM »
I wonder if Legacy Champion would be allowed... :D
Or this.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 11:41:16 AM »
I wonder if Legacy Champion would be allowed... :D
Or this.

Class Fixes are usually Tier 3. If he uses that, then his Barbarian side has to be the PHB version. If he uses the fixed Barbarian, then he has to use the unmodified Warlock.

@Venn: Keep in mind that some spell effects still stop your Glaive and EB, despite it being a SUA. Spells like Globe of Invulnerability still consider it a spell (due to the text of the EB class feature itself).

To be honest, you'd be better off not using Rage+Glaive, as Glaive makes no mention of your Str modifier (or Power Attack). This is a touchy subject; even though I'm fully capable of ruling one way or the other, doing so is a tough descision for me (one side likes to see my players succeed, but the other side feels the Glaive shouldn't apply a Str modifier for a few reasons).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Ivory Knight

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 12:30:03 PM »
I guess, Rage Mage wouldn't work for your Gestalt Barb/Warlock?

I'd suggest using Dragonfire Adept instead of Warlock.
Entangle Foes with your Breath(already Su, so saves a Feat) and than PA them to death with a Reach Weapon.

Other Idea would require you to somehow gain a Breath Weapon which allows for Metabreath Feats:
Quicken Breath + Fullattack = Win

Ways to get this working:
- Be a Dragonborn with the Heart Aspect
- Be a Halfdragon, that took Dragon Breath(RoD)
- Be a real Dragon on one side of your Gestalt(either advance Dragon HD, or top off with some Gish PrC. Use a Sovereign Archetype, if you can)
- Be a Totemist and use some soulmeld that gives Breath Weapon(IIRC Winter Mask has 1d4 recharge, not sure about Lammasu Mantle)

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 12:37:21 PM »
I guess, Rage Mage wouldn't work for your Gestalt Barb/Warlock?

I'd suggest using Dragonfire Adept instead of Warlock.
Entangle Foes with your Breath(already Su, so saves a Feat) and than PA them to death with a Reach Weapon.

Other Idea would require you to somehow gain a Breath Weapon which allows for Metabreath Feats:
Quicken Breath + Fullattack = Win

Ways to get this working:
- Be a Dragonborn with the Heart Aspect
- Be a Halfdragon, that took Dragon Breath(RoD)
- Be a real Dragon on one side of your Gestalt(either advance Dragon HD, or top off with some Gish PrC. Use a Sovereign Archetype, if you can)
- Be a Totemist and use some soulmeld that gives Breath Weapon(IIRC Winter Mask has 1d4 recharge, not sure about Lammasu Mantle)

Lammasu Mantle and Winter Mask both have the 1d4 Recharge time. But he can't be a full-dragon on one side of his Gestalt (I made this clear to everyone who joined that campaign that such a thing isn't allowed).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

skydragonknight

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2009, 01:19:41 PM »
The best substitute for Rage off the top of my head is the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA(in the SRD). Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement might work as well(I forget what else it gets, but +4 Dex is part of the deal).

Eldritch Glaive is technically not a Full Attack-it's a full round action. So melees' favorite option(Pounce) becomes impossible without a very specific houserule.
Somebody had to point that out sooner or later with that particular combination of classes.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 01:33:42 PM »
Lammasu Mantle and Winter Mask both have the 1d4 Recharge time. But he can't be a full-dragon on one side of his Gestalt (I made this clear to everyone who joined that campaign that such a thing isn't allowed).

He didn't mention it, but that still leaves 3 out of 4 ways to get a Supernatural Attack, that rivals the Eldritch Blast for Damage
and could potentially be used as a free action. Even if he breathes(with entangling Exhalation) and afterwards retreats to
pepper his enemies with ranged Attacks, that would be one scary Barbarian to meet.

Damn, now I want to try this myself. Must make do without Gestalt, tough(has never been used by any DM I play with :()

Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 01:39:59 PM »
Perhaps consider Factotum/Barbarian?  Seems like a very flexible barb right there. :)
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VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2009, 01:45:05 PM »
The more I try to make this work, the less it does. I did mention DfA in the OP, but as I mentioned it's got access to far fewer invocations, no access to Hellfire Warlock, and works with few if any PrC's; And while it still does get UMD, it doesn't get the very valuable Deceive Item ability to take 10, meaning my Cha would still need to be pretty decent. It's still a good option to keep the general idea of the original concept alive, so I can tinker with it (would be nice if I had access to Warlock invocations, too).

If I can't make this work, I'll just have to go with something else. I'd like to keep either rebalanced barbarian or rebalanced warlock if possible, though just having access to UMD might be enough.

By the way, it looks like the player with the "Something dragon-themed" character is instead looking at either prepared caster or psion, so I'll change that in the OP.
-------------------------Pseudo-Edit-----------------------
Perhaps consider Factotum/Barbarian?  Seems like a very flexible barb right there. :)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 02:14:24 PM by VennDygrem »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 02:31:55 PM »
I do approve of using Legacy Champion to increase the Hellfire Blast ability's damage output.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 02:44:25 PM »
So, 'Barbarian 20//Warlock 10/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6' would mean that at level 20, anyone attacking me will regret it, and anyone not attacking me will regret it.  :D

I would benefit most from avoiding LA like a plague to make sure I get enough levels in these classes.

Also, Invoking is a class feature of Hellfire Warlock. Does this get advanced by Legacy Champion as well? I can see the arguments for and against it, as RAW it would get advanced, thus advancing warlock eldritch blast and invocations. Just want to be clear on the implications and interpretation.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2009, 02:47:14 PM »
So, 'Barbarian 20//Warlock 10/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Legacy Champion 6' would mean that at level 20, anyone attacking me will regret it, and anyone not attacking me will regret it.  :D

I would benefit most from avoiding LA like a plague to make sure I get enough levels in these classes.

Also, Invoking is a class feature of Hellfire Warlock. Does this get advanced by Legacy Champion as well? I can see the arguments for and against it, as RAW it would get advanced, thus advancing warlock eldritch blast and invocations. Just want to be clear on the implications and interpretation.

Yes it would. It advances Invoking the same way Hellfire Warlock does (seeing as HFW has that as a class feature).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2009, 02:55:57 PM »
Damn, another touch-attacker.

I'm going to have to watch out for your character, Venn :P
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You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2009, 02:58:45 PM »
Damn, another touch-attacker.

I'm going to have to watch out for your character, Venn :P


You may have to deal with a Martial Adept too, if Team Good turns out to be short a player (and I'll be using the PsiWar fix I made to test play it's unique style out).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2009, 03:16:37 PM »
Just making sure.

Ok then, now to fill in the details. Race, feats, equipment. Just enough will be devoted to assuring access to classes on the warlock side, but little in the way of worrying about some things that normal warlocks do. Precise shot could be useful due to a low dex score, but I'll only worry about it if there's room for it.

I'll also need to procure a legacy item at some point, something I assume is either something I own that seems relatively mundane, or something I will find along the way.

Also wondering if Dragonborn still need to be non-evil since there is no Bahamut to swear loyalty to, and alignment isn't black and white in Eberron. >_>

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2009, 03:18:08 PM »
Damn, another touch-attacker.

I'm going to have to watch out for your character, Venn :P


Hey, Sinfire said our teams could help or hurt eachother. Given my penchant for swearing off parts of my soul for parcels of power, if the rest of my team gets ganked I'm sure I wouldn't feel too bad joining up with you guys.  :lmao

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2009, 03:21:13 PM »
Just making sure.

Ok then, now to fill in the details. Race, feats, equipment. Just enough will be devoted to assuring access to classes on the warlock side, but little in the way of worrying about some things that normal warlocks do. Precise shot could be useful due to a low dex score, but I'll only worry about it if there's room for it.

I'll also need to procure a legacy item at some point, something I assume is either something I own that seems relatively mundane, or something I will find along the way.

Also wondering if Dragonborn still need to be non-evil since there is no Bahamut to swear loyalty to, and alignment isn't black and white in Eberron. >_>

Bahamut still exists. He's in the Eberron Campaign Setting. In fact, most of the dragon Gods are still in Eberron (Tiamat is the daughter of Khyber, for example). Dragonborn are instead devoted to the great dragon Eberron (not the plane, but the myth). They still need to be non-Evil.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2009, 03:27:51 PM »
In that case I won't be getting my Con up to ridiculous potential, but there are other benefits beyond that.

I think going with Warforged is a good call, in case I need to end my rage prematurely during combat, I won't have fatigue penalties and can use a wand of Rage to get a bit of the benefits back after doing what needs to be done, if need-be.

I'll drop Dragonborn for now just in case I need to make some judgement calls that Eberron may not smile upon.    :D

---
Also, anything to avoid giving anyone any reason to call our group 'Team Dragonstrike'  :P
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 03:45:57 PM by VennDygrem »

Prime32

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2009, 04:11:41 PM »
Buy a Sky Lance. :smirk
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Gestalt Eldritch Barbarian- Viable?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 04:18:01 PM »
Har Har  :P

Anyway, my stats feel abysmal with just warforged. I need LA 0 to get all the class levels I need, but the MAD is killing me. I need ample skill points for PrC requirements, and now having a penalty to cha means fewer points to spread around just to keep an ok score in UMD. Should I just drop the UMD thing altogether? Or go with a different race?