Author Topic: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey  (Read 6787 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2009, 10:41:16 AM »
As much as it breaks my heart to say so... I don't think it was me. :)
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Nunkuruji

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2009, 04:20:02 PM »
While the Sublime Chord / War Weaver looks quite awesome starting at higher levels, it just seems rough to play throughout level 1-20 lifetime.

I submit to you a build that's perhaps well playable at all levels, as a very party friendly character.
No new concepts, just a hopefully fairly complete and correct build.



Changeling
01 F.Conj1 Scribe Scroll -> Improved Init. Familiar -> Abrubt Jaunt. Able Learner
02 Wizard2
03 Wizard3 Enlarge Spell
04 Wizard4
05 Wizard5 Spontaneous Divination
06 WWeave1 Arcane Disciple(Healing Domain)
07 WWeave2
08 WWeave3
09 WWeave4 Combat Casting
10 WWeave5
11 SpellG1
12 SpellG2 Skill Focus(Knowledge), Maximize Spell
13 SpellG3
14 SpellG4 Metamagic Feat (Empower, Extend or Widen)
15 LoreMs1 Practiced Spellcaster, Loremaster Secret
16 Recast1
17 Recast2
18 Recast3 Arcane Manipulation
19 Recast4
20 Recast5


Progressive Play
[spoiler]
01-05: Semi-Standard Wizard.
06: Party Buff, Tapestry Cure Spells and after combat CLW wand tapestry.
07-09: Tapestry stored buffing
10: Extended Tapestry buffs & essentially mass ranged Cure Critical in dire situations.
11-13: Nothing special, pick up Feats for Loremaster and Recaster to Sudden-X
14: Use Spellguard to now party Tapestry personal buffs (assuming favorable interpretation)
15: Use Magic Device!
16-20: Obvious Recaster goodness. Put some oomph into multi-threat BFC spells with Sudden-X, or even Tapestry Sudden Max-CCW.
[/spoiler]


Musings
[spoiler]
Dropped caster levels are spread out, making it smoother to play over the lifetime.

Need a decent wisdom, and need an eventual 19 Wis to mass-heal w/ Arcane Disciple.

Problem... Very Weak Fort & Ref saves.

Win initiative and polymorph.
Dropping Loremaster can free up a feat or two for Insightful Reflexes, if UMD unneeded.
Drop Arcane Disciple after Loremaster to get Insightful Reflexes.
Just take save booster for Loremaster Secret.
Focused Transmuter that retains familiar (and init/fort/ref bonus) & uses tapestry polymorph shenanigans.
[/spoiler]

Operation Shoestring

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    • Email
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2009, 05:00:45 PM »
Loremaster needs a skill focus, no?

Why combat casting?

Nunkuruji

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2009, 05:56:23 PM »
Skill Focus is there

Spellguard requires Combat Casting

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2009, 07:02:43 PM »
I'd go Transmuter rather than Conjurer for a buffer - the tasty buffs are Transmutation first, Illusion second and Enchantment third. (Oops I forgot Abjuration.) You lose Abrupt Jaunt but it's worth it IMO (if you really want it go Conjurer but not Focused).
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 04:20:47 AM »
I agree with Omen with Illusion as being a great buffing school, especially for War Weaver. Quiescent Weaving Displacement or Greater Invisibility can decide the outcome of a battle before it even begins with a single spell and using Invisibility with your Eldritch Tapestry as you enter a new location gives a surprise round against a surprising number of enemies.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Nunkuruji

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 03:30:20 PM »
Definitely. Would drop Necromancy, Enchantment and Evocation on a F.Specialist.
I think it's a great way to go considering the slots lost on dropped caster levels, even if you have to lose Heroism from Enchantment.
Potentially burning 4 buff spells at the beginning of each combat will chew through spell slots pretty quick.

Is it legal to sac F.Specialist slots to Spontaneously Divine?

In either case, it seems likely a conjurer or transmuter could fill up those specialist slots one way or the other to both buff and bfc with great efficiency. Just need to see how the spell list and slots would pan out.

Ivory Knight

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2009, 10:52:19 AM »
I always preferred Bard(Prestigebard is even better :smirk) as entry to War Weaver.
Mix up with Sublime Chord and Wyrm Wizard to get god stuff of all Spelllevels.

Played the following build, found it to be a better Sorcerer, than the Sorcerer^^:

Spellscale Bard 5/*/ Lyric Thaumathurg 3/ Sublime Chord 1/ Dracolexi 10
*6th Level is needed before Lyric Thaumathurg, due to Skillrank requirements. I used the first Level of Dracolexi(to later get Sublime Chord 2 for Song of Arcane Power), could also have been Bard 6 for Suggestion.

War Weaver 5 and Wyrm Wizard 3(for example to get Heal from Adept) could replace any 8 Levels combined of Dracolexi and Lyric Thaumathurg.

I'd maybe scrap my old build and use instead:
Bard 4(Versatile Spellcaster to heigthen CMW or some other 2nd Lvl to 3rd) or 6(regular entry)/
War Weaver 2-4(depending on entry method used)/
Wyrm Wizard 3/
Sublime Chord 2/
remaining War Weaver
+
what ever you like(for example Uncanny Trickster to advance your Tapestry 2 Levels further, you'll smell a bit cheesy tough :rollseyes)

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2009, 02:32:32 PM »
+4 fighter feats to all allies
O.o How?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

veekie

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2009, 02:47:57 PM »
Stacked Heroics?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2009, 05:26:34 PM »
+4 fighter feats to all allies
O.o How?

It's an ability of the heartfire fanner - actually, you can grant either fighter feats or feats you know, as long as they meet the prereqs.  Costs one use of Bardic Music.  Normally caped at 3, but song of the heart raises to 4.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2009, 05:37:30 PM »
+4 fighter feats to all allies
O.o How?

It's an ability of the heartfire fanner - actually, you can grant either fighter feats or feats you know, as long as they meet the prereqs.  Costs one use of Bardic Music.  Normally caped at 3, but song of the heart raises to 4.

Best,
David
Wow... that's freakin' crazy! I want one of these in every party I ever join from now on! Amazing!
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2009, 06:03:56 PM »
+4 fighter feats to all allies
O.o How?

It's an ability of the heartfire fanner - actually, you can grant either fighter feats or feats you know, as long as they meet the prereqs.  Costs one use of Bardic Music.  Normally caped at 3, but song of the heart raises to 4.

Best,
David
Wow... that's freakin' crazy! I want one of these in every party I ever join from now on! Amazing!
Agreed.

Where was Heartfire Fanner located again?
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2009, 06:09:44 PM »
Where are Heartfire Fanner and Mythic Exemplar from?

heartfire fanner is from Dragon Magazine, issue 314

Best,
David

Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2009, 06:12:57 PM »
Where are Heartfire Fanner and Mythic Exemplar from?

heartfire fanner is from Dragon Magazine, issue 314

Best,
David

Thanks :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2009, 10:28:14 PM »
If you want to go nuts, Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5, using the divine adaptation of Anima Mage.  Bind Naberious.  You now have IIRC endless persisted spells per day, so throw out Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Vigorous Circle, and all that other good stuff.  Also, if you can turn your party into necropolitans, you can AoE burst heal once every 5 rounds or so.

JaronK

Nunkuruji

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 416
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2009, 06:02:34 PM »
Continuing with the theme of playability at all levels 1-20. Taking a look at number of spell slots available to cast when the PrC gets truly interesting at around 10th-11th level, for sorcerer comparison sake this is done at 11th for 5th level spells. (barring early entry)
Assuming Wiz5/WarWeaver5/X1 or Sorc6/WarWeaver5

Let's assume 3 encounters/day and filling up the Quiescent Tapestry Weaving of 4 spells before each encounter.
That's 12 spells a day just on buffs.

If you have a number of melee in the party, and truly want to maximize effectiveness from the start, I would assume a standard rotation of

Immediate Action: Nerveskitter (Tapestry!)
Move Action: Release Quiescent Tapestry
Standard Action: Haste (why waste a tapestry slot when it's already multi-target)

Which brings us up to 5 spells cast right away every encounter, for 15 spells a day just on buffs.

Now lets assume some various all-day buffs, maybe not the best choices, or some legal until SpellGuard, but a reasonable assumption:
Rope Trick, Greater Mage Armor, Overland Flight, Heart of Air, Heart of Earth, Heart of Fire, Heart of Water, Contingent Energy Resistance

For a grand total of 23.


Assuming a conservative primary casting score of 20 (16 base, +2 enhancement bonus, +2 level up)


Generalist
LvL #Base #Mod #Total
1st 4     2    6
2nd 4     1    5
3rd 3     1    4
4th 3     1    4
5th 2     1    4


The generalist will easily spend all of its spell slots in a day just merely from all-day buffs and Quiescent Tapestry. This is no good, even a hyper-intelligent elven generalist would be sweating. But the issue does become alleviated at higher levels.


Focused Specialist
LvL #Base #Mod #Spec #Total
1st 3     2    3     8
2nd 3     1    3     7
3rd 2     1    3     6
4th 2     1    3     6
5th 1     1    3     5


A Focused Specialist would do well to specialize in the school of spells primarily cast for Quiescent Tapestry, but if he chooses 1 spell of each level, he could reasonably specialize in another school to perform other casting duties, but would be relying almost entirely on that specialist school for those duties (Conj, Arcane Disciple, etc in the above). This also becomes much less of an issue at higher levels. This is an interesting planning dilemma.

Transmutation seems like a good choice at first, but given the schools spell list at higher levels it seems unnecessary, unless building towards Gishdom instead of something like Recaster.

Of course, high levels and Arcane Manipulation fix any of the prepared spell arrangement issues.


Sorcerer
LvL #Base #Mod #Total
1st 6     2    8
2nd 6     1    7
3rd 6     1    7
4th 5     1    6
5th 3     1    4


If the sorcerer also chooses to cast 1 spell of each level for Quiescent Tapestry, it leaves some variability in the spells known to perform other duties. However, it has roughly the same number of spells as a F.Specialist, however, can't really afford to spend its spells known on day-long buffs. There might be a few interesting tricks to do here, such as Tapestry Wings of Cover, but otherwise seemingly inferior.


The next thing to look at would be what spells to choose to Quiescent Tapestry Weave before and after SpellGuard.

Pyrefox

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2009, 06:35:01 PM »
Is there any possibility to build a buffer druid? Also I've seen a spell that I would love to abuse, which is Mass Snake's Swiftness. Anyone got ideas on how to improve (or multiply) this spell? Having everyone attack one extra time is very nice in my opinion, but that would be better if they could get attack and damage bonuses (that includes an enraged animal companon, possibly).

Anyone with ideas for other Classes/PrCs to help a buffer druid build?

--> Mass Snake's Swiftness is a 4th-level Druid Spell, I guess.


One last thing: I'd love to keep the Druid flavor, and not add psionics, templates or heritages. Wis 19 is part of my plan.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2009, 06:37:12 PM by Pyrefox »

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2009, 07:01:42 PM »
Archivist would be better.

Now that I got that out of my system, I'll start by mentioning that Mass SSSS (SC) is actually 2nd level for druids. You're not going to like my answer, but what you're trying doing to is improve a divine spell. Follow my eyes to... Divine Metamagic. Cloistered Cleric 1/Druid X with DMM: Twin and you grant 2 attacks per casting.

However I don't know of a way to enhance a specific spell to grant atk/dmg bonuses. Get a Bard in the party.

 :whistle
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Pyrefox

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: How to be the ultimate party buffmonkey
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2009, 11:48:25 PM »
No I didn't plan to make that spell do it all at once.. I wanted other options that would make this spell worth casting as much as I could. The Twin may be a nice idea if it fits the spell levels. What I was searching for was effects like feats, auras, other mass buff spells... that I could put together with the Mass Snake's Swiftness and make that 1 extra attack a very deadly one.

And OMFG, Mass Snake's Swiftness is REALLY a 2nd-level spell....................................................... I'm speechless. Maximizing it would cause all the attack results to be auto 20?? XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD