Author Topic: Explaining why VOP is not broken.  (Read 9009 times)

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2009, 05:24:57 PM »
silly question but what's DCFS?
um.... I don't know the exact abbreviations, but I would guess "Dark Chaos Feat Shenanigans"?

Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2009, 05:26:42 PM »
silly question but what's DCFS?

Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, if I recall correctly. It uses Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos for feat swapping silliness.

Emy

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2009, 06:03:26 PM »
silly question but what's DCFS? OK found what it stood for, what book is these spells in. Must read :)

DCFS = Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle

using the Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos feats from Fiendish Codex I

Embrace the Dark Chaos lets you swap your feats for abyssal heritor feats.
Shun the Dark Chaos lets you swap you abyssal heritor feats for other feats (with no restrictions on what the new feat is other than that you have to qualify for it).

So with these two 8th level spells, you can swap your undesirable feats for good ones.

And VoP gives you (among other things) many undesirable feats.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2009, 08:21:31 PM »
As I've said a number of times whenever the DCFS shows up, it's also possible to get infinite feats out of it.


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Samb

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2009, 09:39:51 PM »
Psychic reformation can do the same thing depending on how you interpret the wording. I'm using a king of smack VoP right now reforming my all my exalted feats and I must say I feel broken. I have no need for weapons since I have claws of the beast active all the time. I use interial barrier for AC and that is always on as well. I have PSP than I know what to do with since I have mental might mantle and heavy bost on my WIS. 

I was thinking soulknife would be great for VoP as well since soulknives can devote most of their enchancements to other attributes instead.  Or can they get a +10 soul blade? 

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2009, 09:59:53 PM »
Psychic reformation can do the same thing depending on how you interpret the wording. I'm using a king of smack VoP right now reforming my all my exalted feats and I must say I feel broken. I have no need for weapons since I have claws of the beast active all the time. I use interial barrier for AC and that is always on as well. I have PSP than I know what to do with since I have mental might mantle and heavy bost on my WIS. 

I was thinking soulknife would be great for VoP as well since soulknives can devote most of their enchancements to other attributes instead.  Or can they get a +10 soul blade? 

Soulknives can't get more than a +5/+4 Mindblade (and it has to have the +5 on attack, you can't mix and match it at all).

Soulnkives are also very item-dependent.  VoP hurts them.


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Runestar

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2009, 10:21:14 PM »
DCFS is even more fun when you realize that as currently worded, the elf's bonus racial weapon proficiencies are granted in the form of bonus feats, which means they can also be swapped out for 4 other more useful feats.  :D
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Negative Zero

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2009, 10:34:26 PM »
Or that every individual weapon spelled out that a Wizard or a Druid is proficient with is another feat.

McPoyo

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2009, 10:50:59 PM »
Elven Wizard1/Bard1/Druid1/Rogue1/Monk1 then psychic reform those other four levels out after you DCFS the proficiency feats away into 40 odd other feats.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2009, 11:06:55 PM »
Don't forget about Armor profs!


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Generic_PC

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2009, 11:26:08 PM »
does DCFS shenanigans let you qualify for like... Great Cleave, then DCFS away Power Attack, while keeping the effects of great cleave?
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Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2009, 11:28:55 PM »
No. If you no longer meet the prerequisites of a feat, you do not retain its benefits.

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2009, 11:46:45 PM »
This DCFS sounds like a great way to retool a character.

Samb

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2009, 12:30:58 AM »

Soulknives can't get more than a +5/+4 Mindblade (and it has to have the +5 on attack, you can't mix and match it at all).

Soulnkives are also very item-dependent.  VoP hurts them.
Never played a soulknife, how are they item dependent?  I thought the whole point of them was that they had a weapon that could never be removed.

Alastar

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2009, 12:46:59 AM »
Monks have that too, they're called fist.

Still very item dependent.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2009, 12:49:41 AM »

Soulknives can't get more than a +5/+4 Mindblade (and it has to have the +5 on attack, you can't mix and match it at all).

Soulnkives are also very item-dependent.  VoP hurts them.
Never played a soulknife, how are they item dependent?  I thought the whole point of them was that they had a weapon that could never be removed.

1: The weapon is only a +9, and can't be optimized due to lack of options.
2: The removal of the weapon opens up more of the WBL, which allows you to attempt to make up for the 3/4s BAB, mediocre Sneak Attack variant, and poor skill selection (they have a few decent ones, but the rest are crap).
3: They desperately need a better BAB to be a front line class (which their Hit Dice and Armor Profs suggest they should be, but they aren't).
4: They are billed as a stealthy class, but lack the skill points and abilities needed to be a skill monkey.
5: Their analogue to Sneak Attack, Psychic Strike, is a joke. It takes a move action to use, and is a mind-affecting ability (and only works on one attack). They would be better off with Greater Psionic Weapon, and that deals less damage!
6: Their class abilities are so divided on what they think they should be doing (Whirldwind Attack, ranged combat, TWFing, THFing) that they can't focus in on a single option without the others being wasted, and their ability to cover those options is vastly inferior to the Fighter or Barbarian or the Ranger.
7: Ranged combat is impractical for them unless you have Complete Psionic, which opens up a whole 'nother can of worms for the rest of the Psionic classes.
8: TWFing with the Mind Blade is so impractical that you should never resort to it.


In short, they need to spend more money to cover the above weaknesses. The lack of needing a weapon is nice, but it just doesn't cut it (pun not intended).


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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2009, 12:54:46 AM »
Gah. Ninja'd.


Soulknives can't get more than a +5/+4 Mindblade (and it has to have the +5 on attack, you can't mix and match it at all).

Soulnkives are also very item-dependent.  VoP hurts them.
Never played a soulknife, how are they item dependent?  I thought the whole point of them was that they had a weapon that could never be removed.
Their entire class gives you a single item that can be gotten with a small portion of a normal character's gp. Alternately, there are several alternate class features, PrCs, feats, and psionic powers (and probably spells, too) that would each grant what the entire soulknife's class does, only better.

The ones I know of are (alternate class features) psychic warrior [Mind's Eye, soulbound weapon variant] (PrCs) kensai, psychic weapons master, (feats) Vow of Poverty, Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, (powers) call weapon.

Soulknives are also non-casters/manifesters, and don't have the options granted by things like soulmelds. They also don't have enough focus to be what they're supposed to be good at (fighting? or was that skillmonkeying?) because of low BAB, sub-par skill list, and somewhat erratic class features.

If soulknives had the flexibility of casters, or the focus of the ToB classes, or could do damage comparable to a rogue (which they can't, generally), maybe they'd be less screwed up, but as it stands, replacing an entire class with a single feat or variant class feature (without being at all unbalanced) is just sad.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2009, 12:57:25 AM »
Gah. Ninja'd.

If soulknives had the flexibility of casters, or the focus of the ToB classes, or could do damage comparable to a rogue (which they can't, generally), maybe they'd be less screwed up, but as it stands, replacing an entire class with a single feat or variant class feature (without being at all unbalanced) is just sad.
;)


I've gone this far with the Tome of Expansions (DnD Deliberations). I've turned the Mind Blade into a Stance for the Psychic Warrior variant. Martial Study+Martial Stance can give it to anyone who wants a Mind Blade (seeing as one feat+a Good alignment grants the same thing, this is fairly balanced).


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Caelic

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2009, 02:29:02 PM »
Psychic reformation can do the same thing depending on how you interpret the wording. I'm using a king of smack VoP right now reforming my all my exalted feats and I must say I feel broken.


But is that proof that VoP is broken, or that abilities like DFCS and psychic reformation (when interpreted that way) are broken?  I'd say the latter.

McPoyo

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2009, 03:40:12 PM »
Depends, we still talking about a druid with VoP? :P
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]