Author Topic: Explaining why VOP is not broken.  (Read 9010 times)

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Operation Shoestring

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2009, 10:48:51 PM »
VoP Monk: The party wizard isn't a powergaming dick and will actually help out the party. He casts fly on me.

The enemy caster dispells magic you.  The party wizard refuses to waste another action on the sub-par monk.

Runestar

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2009, 10:57:24 PM »
I am fairly sure there is a feat in an issue of dragon which lets you do away with requiring a spellbook.

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Pffft. Familiars get feats, don't they?  :D

As do animal companions... :smirk

On a side note, I have always imagined what a dragon with VOP would look like... :p

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Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2009, 11:03:34 PM »
I am fairly sure there is a feat in an issue of dragon which lets you do away with requiring a spellbook.

Quote
Pffft. Familiars get feats, don't they?  :D

As do animal companions... :smirk

On a side note, I have always imagined what a dragon with VOP would look like... :p



There's one in core, it's called Spell Mastery. The downsides include the very small number of spells this would give you to memorize (even if you took it for every feat, ever), and the fact that you have to "already know" those spells, which would be rather difficult with no spellbook to add them to in the first place.

And a VoP dragon is...huh. I can't even comprehend that, a dragon with no hoard. A dragon who has given up his hoard to charity. That's one of the signs of the apocalypse, I think.

jojolagger

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2009, 11:18:33 PM »
In honest truth i would change vow of poverty to a flat 50 gp limit. Only exceptions being class items e.g. holy symbol is okay, as is spell component pouch & spell book. The wizard would be allowed to get a familiar despite the 100 gp cost if he went out and collected the stuff himself. assuming 10 gp on weapons this allows magic items totaling 40gp worth still not much.
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Vinom

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2009, 12:07:09 AM »
Party rogue: That guy with the VoP can't get magic items. Sure, he has to give his share of the treasure to charity, but who says he needs to know how much treasure we're getting? I'm the only one that knows ow much this stuff's worth, so I'll tell him we get less stuff than we really do. The party gets more loot overall, and that Holy Joe has a peaceful concience..

Party Rogue: That crazy monk gives away all his gold... so I'll sneak into towns ahead of us and pretend to be a begger, doubling my cut of the treasure!
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Emy

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2009, 12:48:30 AM »
There's one in core, it's called Spell Mastery. The downsides include the very small number of spells this would give you to memorize (even if you took it for every feat, ever), and the fact that you have to "already know" those spells, which would be rather difficult with no spellbook to add them to in the first place.

What about a Shadowcraft Mage with the Illusion Mastery wizard variant? Hell, even without it, silent image does everything.

Quote
And a VoP dragon is...huh. I can't even comprehend that, a dragon with no hoard. A dragon who has given up his hoard to charity. That's one of the signs of the apocalypse, I think.

Fluff: the dragon's sacrifice of material possessions is only made more meaningful by their racial love of treasure!

If the Dragon in question has innate spellcasting ability, they don't need material components. If it's sorcerer-based, they don't need a spellbook. Forcecage spam ahoy. Of course, said VoP dragon couldn't do anything better than a dragon covered with magic shinies, but they're not that crippled by VoP at high levels, are they?

VOP is also nice on a cohort if the DM lets you be so cheesy :P
Pffft. Familiars get feats, don't they? :D

Heh, you could even do this with a Dragon Cohort or Dragon Familiar.  :D

Bozwevial

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2009, 12:55:00 AM »
Illusion mastery would work, yes. Of course, you'd either have to struggle through lower levels with nothing but illusion spells (tricky, but surmountable) or take VoP at a higher level so you could use ScM properly (by which point the benefits are somewhat underwhelming).

Vinom

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2009, 12:56:32 AM »
Quote
And a VoP dragon is...huh. I can't even comprehend that, a dragon with no hoard. A dragon who has given up his hoard to charity. That's one of the signs of the apocalypse, I think.

Fluff: the dragon's sacrifice of material possessions is only made more meaningful by their racial love of treasure!

If the Dragon in question has innate spellcasting ability, they don't need material components. If it's sorcerer-based, they don't need a spellbook. Forcecage spam ahoy. Of course, said VoP dragon couldn't do anything better than a dragon covered with magic shinies, but they're not that crippled by VoP at high levels, are they?

I can't remember the exact name, but there is a dragon prestige class in which to qualify, the dragon eats his horde.
If the dragon first grabs that, then VoP, he can just eat his share of the treasure, and never break the vow as long as he eats it in small enough chunks.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2009, 02:46:17 AM »
Bozweviel, do you actually have a DM who will cripple his wizard? And if you do, why don't you know that already, thus having an extra spellbook squirelled away somewhere?

I swear, that is how the min/max boards deal with losing their spellbook.

On topic, I (and my meager op-fu) think that VoP is only broken in the most restricted of campaigns. When you're most expensive magic item found to-date is a single +1 longsword, VoP becomes so much better for the monk who doesn't want anything other than gold to stockpile, just so he can have a share.

I actually prefer having mine tattooed onto my character, or at least the major spells in it. Everything else is utility, and a few must-have spells have been learned through Spell Mastery (because I took Uncanny Forethought, like I'm supposed to).


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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2009, 04:21:27 AM »
Hmm... a VOP wizard seems like an interesting challenge for a contest...
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EjoThims

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2009, 07:04:24 AM »
VoP is great for Clerics and Wizards (and Ur-Priests), as long as it's taken at level 1 but you don't use the character until after you gain 9th level spells.

Just DCFS the exalted feats to useful ones. Once you get no more feats from VoP, DCFS VoP and Sacred Vow to useful feats. ;)

Brainpiercing

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2009, 07:42:31 AM »
VoP is great for Clerics and Wizards (and Ur-Priests), as long as it's taken at level 1 but you don't use the character until after you gain 9th level spells.

Just DCFS the exalted feats to useful ones. Once you get no more feats from VoP, DCFS VoP and Sacred Vow to useful feats. ;)
Hmmm... much metagaming can be had from this.

Rather, the thought of using DCFS for a GOOD VoP character should be some cause for concern. Also, even with that number of bonus feats you'll be stuck with a Lvl 17+ Character with no money.

I've met some recent attempts to make an Evil VoP, thought, in that case I guess you're golden.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2009, 08:11:32 AM »
VoP is great for Clerics and Wizards (and Ur-Priests), as long as it's taken at level 1 but you don't use the character until after you gain 9th level spells.

Just DCFS the exalted feats to useful ones. Once you get no more feats from VoP, DCFS VoP and Sacred Vow to useful feats. ;)
Hmmm... much metagaming can be had from this.

Rather, the thought of using DCFS for a GOOD VoP character should be some cause for concern. Also, even with that number of bonus feats you'll be stuck with a Lvl 17+ Character with no money.

I've met some recent attempts to make an Evil VoP, thought, in that case I guess you're golden.
IIRC, the DCFS is chaotic, but not evil.
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EjoThims

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2009, 09:33:44 AM »
IIRC, the DCFS is chaotic, but not evil.

Indeed.

And once you've turned all your exalted feats into useful ones, you can DCFS VoP and Sacred Vow as well, meaning you can start collecting money again.  ;)

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2009, 10:25:40 AM »
The only way I think it can work is for a Psion to take VoP after hitting 17th level, using ALL his cash to buy permanent stat boosting equipment and researching cross-disciplinary powers beforehand. 

You're still burning two feats for...nothing? Seriously, the problem of VoP is that the benefits just aren't all that and then some. I mean, you'd be stock without Torc of Power Preservation (for example) and with no bonus Power Points or some such.
Uhm, +8 to your primary stat?  On top of what you'd have in +5 Inherent since you did it late?

Runestar

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2009, 11:01:08 AM »
Located the feat.

Eidetic spellcaster - from dragon 357. 1st lv only, you also give up your familiar and scribe scroll feat (so no goodies you can swap them out for, unless you have a very liberal DM who lets you first swap them out, then take said feat, and rule that there is no cost for not having the respective abilities to lose).

Effectively, you do not need to put the spells you learn into a spellbook (but still incur all necessary costs for learning new spells).  :D

Throw in collegiate wizard and you are golden.  :D
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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2009, 11:48:44 AM »
Located the feat.

Eidetic spellcaster - from dragon 357. 1st lv only, you also give up your familiar and scribe scroll feat (so no goodies you can swap them out for, unless you have a very liberal DM who lets you first swap them out, then take said feat, and rule that there is no cost for not having the respective abilities to lose).

Effectively, you do not need to put the spells you learn into a spellbook (but still incur all necessary costs for learning new spells).  :D

Throw in collegiate wizard and you are golden.  :D
Damn you, now you've broken it again :D.

Jokes aside, that's pretty nice, but I guess even less likely to fly than VoP in the first place.

That being said, around me there have been thoughts about ALL-VoP parties :), because one of the more recent parties that were PLKed around here (that is, player-loss-killed) spent more time with bickering about the loot than playing the game. Luckily I wasn't part of that. That ACF might be useful for such an occasion.

Caelic

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2009, 02:55:24 PM »
VoP Monk: The party wizard isn't a powergaming dick and will actually help out the party. He casts fly on me.



...thus demonstrating that the Wizard is a viable character who can, by virtue of his awesomeness, take up the slack for even a severely-limited character.

Like, say, the VoP Monk.


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VoP Monk: The party knock me unconcious and inscribe magic tattoos on me, then when I wake up they bluff me into thinking that they are divine blessings because I was so faithful to my god. Thereafter I can fly by shouting "For Kord!" (one of the groups near me did this. Much hilarity was had.)

The fact that the characters felt the need to jump through so many hoops  (and the players did likewise) to try to make VoP viable is excellent evidence for its shortcomings.

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2009, 03:49:08 PM »
Indeed. I believe it is a commonly accepted fact that with the help of a party filled with spellcasters even a VoP Monk can be viable.

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Re: Explaining why VOP is not broken.
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2009, 05:23:01 PM »
silly question but what's DCFS? OK found what it stood for, what book is these spells in. Must read :)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 05:26:31 PM by Khorus »