Psionic Lion's Charge And YOU.

[Lycanthromancer]

Except that psionic lion's charge grants you both a charge and a full attack action (that must be executed at some point during the charge), which changes the rules regarding charges and full attacks.

Sorry, doesn't hold up.

[awaken DM golem]

Duration: Instantaneous
TO-version is: Look Ma, I can do this over and over.


Can a Delayed Swift Action happen in the Middle of a Standard or Full action?
If yes, that'd be the legit yes.
As usual, a better edit / psi-x-translation would'a helped.

[skydragonknight]

"Movement during a Charge: You must move before you attack, not after."

The power doesn't rewrite that rule.

[AfterCrescent]

I think I agree with SDK. You have to move as step one. Then step two you make one attack. Now the conditions for charge have been met and other abilities can trigger off that (psionic lion's charge, barbarian pounce, etc). So at best, you're getting 2-3 full attacks at the end of a double move+attack.

[Midnight_v]

I think I agree with SDK. You have to move as step one. Then step two you make one attack. Now the conditions for charge have been met and other abilities can trigger off that (psionic lion's charge, barbarian pounce, etc). So at best, you're getting 2-3 full attacks at the end of a double move+attack.

Even still... Even if you're right...thats pretty damn cool for 3pp.

[Optimator]

Even still... Even if you're right...thats pretty damn cool for 3pp.

Always has been. 

[Lycanthromancer]

But as I keep saying, psionic lion's charge doesn't trigger "when you finish a charge." It triggers when you manifest it. And it only has an effect on a round wherein you are charging, but it doesn't specify what part of the charge it needs to be manifested on.

RAW, it doesn't prevent you from manifesting it as you start your move, in the middle of your move, or at the end of your move. So long as you take your full attack somewhere during the charge, you've satisfied the conditions of the power's description.

And yes, it does change the rules of a charge, given that normally you cannot full attack and charge during the same round.

[Kuroimaken]

But as I keep saying, psionic lion's charge doesn't trigger "when you finish a charge." It triggers when you manifest it. And it only has an effect on a round wherein you are charging, but it doesn't specify what part of the charge it needs to be manifested on.

RAW, it doesn't prevent you from manifesting it as you start your move, in the middle of your move, or at the end of your move. So long as you take your full attack somewhere during the charge, you've satisfied the conditions of the power's description.

And yes, it does change the rules of a charge, given that normally you cannot full attack and charge during the same round.

Say, is it written anywhere that you can use a swift action at any point during your turn?

Cuz that would totally bury the debate.

[Midnight_v]

But as I keep saying, psionic lion's charge doesn't trigger "when you finish a charge." It triggers when you manifest it. And it only has an effect on a round wherein you are charging, but it doesn't specify what part of the charge it needs to be manifested on.

RAW, it doesn't prevent you from manifesting it as you start your move, in the middle of your move, or at the end of your move. So long as you take your full attack somewhere during the charge, you've satisfied the conditions of the power's description.

And yes, it does change the rules of a charge, given that normally you cannot full attack and charge during the same round.

Say, is it written anywhere that you can use a swift action at any point during your turn?

Cuz that would totally bury the debate.

Wow... damn you're right

[Lycanthromancer]

The SRD does say you can manifest a swift action any time you could perform a free action.

So, yes.

[skydragonknight]

The movement limitations of charging have not changed. The moment you make an attack, you lose the ability to move, as per my earlier quote: "You must move before attacking, not after."

[Kuroimaken]

But as I keep saying, psionic lion's charge doesn't trigger "when you finish a charge." It triggers when you manifest it. And it only has an effect on a round wherein you are charging, but it doesn't specify what part of the charge it needs to be manifested on.

RAW, it doesn't prevent you from manifesting it as you start your move, in the middle of your move, or at the end of your move. So long as you take your full attack somewhere during the charge, you've satisfied the conditions of the power's description.

And yes, it does change the rules of a charge, given that normally you cannot full attack and charge during the same round.

Say, is it written anywhere that you can use a swift action at any point during your turn?

Cuz that would totally bury the debate.

Wow... damn you're right

Problem solved.

[Brainpiercing]

The SRD does say you can manifest a swift action any time you could perform a free action.

So, yes.

Ok, so if I'm reading this right, you can still only get two full attacks, one normal one, and one pouncing charge from another source. And IMHO you have to do it in this order, because as soon as you pounce once, and then manifest Lion's charge, the spell does nothing, because all its conditions have already been met. You've executed a charged and done a full attack in the same round. The spell doesn't add anything else. You can't do it again, because it says "in the same round". Only an immediate action maneuver or something like that can add another charge, maybe. But we're pretty deep in the same territory of Battle Jump and Sudden Leap shenanigans, so it's really not any worse, compared to those, IMHO. It only gets bad when you combine the two, maybe.
Now even with the most literal reading of charging this is now:
Make a full attack, then manifest Lion's charge, which now allows you to charge.
Charge, making one attack, and then make a full attack from Lion Totem.

And NOW you get a shaping Lance of Neverending Charge and Great cleave and make more pounces each time the lance triggers on a cleave . Or maybe there was something else needed, I don't remember exactly. IIRC you need a lot of movement speed for that to work .

The movement limitations of charging have not changed. The moment you make an attack, you lose the ability to move, as per my earlier quote: "You must move before attacking, not after."

That's what the spell circumvents, IMHO, due to its iffy "in the same round" wording.

[Lycanthromancer]

Um...Brainpiercing...that's what Linked Power is for...manifesting psionic lion's charge again without spending an action.

[Kuroimaken]

The SRD does say you can manifest a swift action any time you could perform a free action.

So, yes.

Ok, so if I'm reading this right, you can still only get two full attacks, one normal one, and one pouncing charge from another source. And IMHO you have to do it in this order, because as soon as you pounce once, and then manifest Lion's charge, the spell does nothing, because all its conditions have already been met. You've executed a charged and done a full attack in the same round. The spell doesn't add anything else. You can't do it again, because it says "in the same round". Only an immediate action maneuver or something like that can add another charge, maybe. But we're pretty deep in the same territory of Battle Jump and Sudden Leap shenanigans, so it's really not any worse, compared to those, IMHO. It only gets bad when you combine the two, maybe.
Now even with the most literal reading of charging this is now:
Make a full attack, then manifest Lion's charge, which now allows you to charge.
Charge, making one attack, and then make a full attack from Lion Totem.

And NOW you get a shaping Lance of Neverending Charge and Great cleave and make more pounces each time the lance triggers on a cleave . Or maybe there was something else needed, I don't remember exactly. IIRC you need a lot of movement speed for that to work .

The movement limitations of charging have not changed. The moment you make an attack, you lose the ability to move, as per my earlier quote: "You must move before attacking, not after."

That's what the spell circumvents, IMHO, due to its iffy "in the same round" wording.

So... charge, full attack, pounce the next victim?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Actually, I've just found a possible counter-argument for the full thing. Here goes:

1. A Full Attack is not an action you can make separately, it is a continuation of an attack action; You can only choose to make a full attack after making a single attack and normally only if you have the actions available(a lot of ways around the last part--specified exceptions)

2. The only attack action a charge gives you is specified as "after you move". Unless you can generate another attack action during the charge, you can't continue into a full attack.

Except that psionic lion's charge grants you both a charge and a full attack action (that must be executed at some point during the charge), which changes the rules regarding charges and full attacks.

Sorry, doesn't hold up.

"Movement during a Charge: You must move before you attack, not after."

The power doesn't rewrite that rule.

But as I keep saying, psionic lion's charge doesn't trigger "when you finish a charge." It triggers when you manifest it. And it only has an effect on a round wherein you are charging, but it doesn't specify what part of the charge it needs to be manifested on.

RAW, it doesn't prevent you from manifesting it as you start your move, in the middle of your move, or at the end of your move.

The movement limitations of charging have not changed. The moment you make an attack, you lose the ability to move, as per my earlier quote: "You must move before attacking, not after."

So far SDK is right that the full attack is a continuation of the 1 normal attack that ends a charge.

However can someone check this part: "with the barbarian's pounce ability, grants you another full attack"

Wait 2 forms of pounce stack? What ability does a lion have? 'pounce'
What is the first sentence of this power? "You gain the powerful charging ability of a lion"

And what is that powerful charging ability that a lion has? 

[Midnight_v]

Well... in this case it isn't 2 forms of "pounce". 

PLC: doesn't grant pounce. . . and really thats the point. Since there's actually an ability called "pounce" and "pounce" isn't referenced in this power its doing something completely different. Despite the similar wording.
 Although fuctionality speaking yes they would in this case.
Hmm...
Like this: Lion Totem Barb 1, Psiwar "X" lets say 10 for simplicity sake.
1. Charge. 1 attack.
2. Full attack, Which is allowed cause of the pounce = 2 more attacks "Total 3"
3. Activate lions charge: Make a full attack = 2 more attacks "Total 5"
...................
Course realistically you'd activate it first so that the first attacks would get the circumstance bonus as well.
*shrug* is it more complex than that somehow?

[AfterCrescent]

But as I keep saying, psionic lion's charge doesn't trigger "when you finish a charge." It triggers when you manifest it. And it only has an effect on a round wherein you are charging, but it doesn't specify what part of the charge it needs to be manifested on.

You're not even trying to touch RAW at this point. It specifically says

When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round.

Until you've actually moved 10+ feet and then made an attack, you haven't charged. So both conditions have to be met in order for a charge to have occurred to trigger the power.  So the attack comes AFTER you move.

Course realistically you'd activate it first so that the first attacks would get the circumstance bonus as well.
*shrug* is it more complex than that somehow?

No, it's not. Your example is the best way to perform it, actually. Add in Linked Power and a second manifestation and you should be able to add 2 more attacks in that example.

[Omen of Peace]

Um...Brainpiercing...that's what Linked Power is for...manifesting psionic lion's charge again without spending an action.

The way it's worded, you actually only need to manifest it once, then you can Reform it. It's instantaneous so you forever gain that ability (you lose the bonus damage, but who cares ?).

(The instantaneous part has been pointed out before.)

[Brainpiercing]

Well, my point was that the power doesn't grant you those actions, it lets you do them. But if you've already taken them then you can't do them again, because it doesn't say "you are granted extra actions in order to..."

If you take the "When" clause literally, you also can't even manifest it after your first full-attack, because that leaves you without a move action.

If you manifest it at some point during your move for the charge, then it grants the ability to do a full-attack after that charge. Now if you want it to stack with Lion Totem you have to even be specific about the order of the pounces. FIRST you have to make the full-attack from the power, then from the pounce ability, because the power has the restriction of "in the same round", and not "after a charge". If you pounce first from totem, that full-attack overlaps with the one the power (due to the wording of the power), granting you nothing else.