[3.75] Project Phoenix

[Kerrick]

You either push them out of the way (and choose not to move with them but instead towards your target), or you trip them before you move through their space. You use one action or the other, there's no need to use both.

Ohh. I was stuck on the idea of bull rush being like a charge - it's the only thing you can do, not something that happens in the middle of the move. Now that I think on it, I see it more clearly: the bull rush action enables you to: push past an opponent, push the opponent with you, or knock the opponent down through sheer strength. So:

A character or creature can make a bull rush as a swift action, even in the middle of a movement or charge. Someone making a bull rush attempt can do one of the following: push past an opponent, push the opponent backwards, or knock the opponent down through sheer strength. If the attacker makes a bull rush attempt as part of a charge, or if he has the defender held (see Grapple, below), he gains a +2 bonus. The Improved Offense feat grants a +2 bonus to the roll, which stacks.

In order to make a bullrush, the attacker must make an attack roll (1d20 + BAB + Str modifier + size modifier vs. DC 10 + defender's BAB + defender's Str modifier + defender's size modifier). The defender gets a +4 bonus on its check if it has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid (such as a dwarf).

If the attacker pushes past an opponent that occupies more than one square, the DC increases by 2 per square past the first. The attacker must be able to move completely through the target's space, and must make a check for every 5 feet he moves through.

If the attacker wishes to push the target back and the check is successful, the defender is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 points by which the attack exceeds the DC, the attacker can push the defender back an additional 5 feet.

If the attacker wishes to knock the target down and the check succeeds, the defender is knocked prone and the attacker moves past him.

A failure on any check by 5 or less means the attacker stops and is knocked back 5 feet; a failure by 6 or more means the attacker is knocked back 5 feet and falls prone.

It's a little longer than before, but a bit clearer, I think.

Especially if BAB is part of feint, it should be a part of grapple and bull rush. BAB doesn't represent training in any one specific area of combat, but rather the likelihood that you'll succeed at different areas of combat in general. A well trained martial artist is going to be better at fencing (though he might not know all the rules) than a bookworm who never sees physical activity, even if the bookworm has taken special attention to train himself at fencing with his other resources.

Yeah, I suppose so.

BAB could, of course, be a part of the DC as well, and I've changed the text above to reflect that.

If it's part of the attack roll, it definitely should be in the DC too.

Also, it's silly to have a penalty for not having the feat and then a bonus for having it. Just give a bonus that's as big as the difference.

The penalty is for making an unarmed attack against an armed foe. If you try to trip someone with a weapon, or make an unarmed attack against an unarmed foe, you don't suffer the penalty. I see the ambiguity, though - I did word that rather poorly.

[EjoThims]

Now that I think on it, I see it more clearly: the bull rush action enables you to: push past an opponent, push the opponent with you, or knock the opponent down through sheer strength.

I think you're still a little confused as to what I'm proposing. When you use Bull Rush, you don't have to move with your target.

So, instead of using Overrun you can either (provided they are both swift actions):

use Bull Rush to push someone out of your way and continue your movement from before
use Trip to knock them prone and move through their space

There's no need for rules in Bull Rush for moving through squares or for knocking a target prone; the Trip rules already exist for that.

[Kerrick]

I think you're still a little confused as to what I'm proposing. When you use Bull Rush, you don't have to move with your target.

I know that.

There's no need for rules in Bull Rush for moving through squares or for knocking a target prone; the Trip rules already exist for that.

I only included the "moving through squares" thing because you added it; personally, I see no need for it, since larger creatures will have increased DCs anyway, and it's an overcomplicated rule. And, it's not a trip attack, it's "bulling into someone with your shoulder". They use different stats - Str vs. Dex - which is why I included it.

[EjoThims]

I only included the "moving through squares" thing because you added it

I only put it in because I noticed Trips were still attack actions, it's entirely superfluous if Trips are swift.

As for Trip using Dex instead, it's far easier and less complicated to create a feat, ability, or scenario in which it uses Str than to keep a redundant mechanic under a different form of action for so small a difference.

[Kerrick]

As for Trip using Dex instead, it's far easier and less complicated to create a feat, ability, or scenario in which it uses Str than to keep a redundant mechanic under a different form of action for so small a difference.

I could just add it to Improved Offense - if you take the feat, you can add your Strength bonus to trip attempts instead of Dex. As IO is now, all it does is add +2 to bull rush checks and the opponent can't choose to avoid you. If we split off the "knock someone down" part, bull rush would be "push someone back" and "push through someone else's space", and the IO feat would become largely worthless, since it would grant only a +2 bonus. It could work.

[EjoThims]

"push through someone else's space"

You don't even that if you make IO allow Str for Trips, so it's definitely a change I support.

This would allow you to reduce the complexities of both to my most recent post of the two, allow for the flavor of "brute forcing past someone and knocking them down" (IO trip using Str), and allow for major reduction in general combat maneuver rule complexity.

You may also want to make IO allow someone to trip creatures that couldn't be normally, with the caveat that such creatures gain a stability bonus and can stand from prone as a free (or even immediate) action. This would even preserve the feel of overrun against creatures like oozes while still keeping the reduced complexity.

[Kerrick]

You don't even that if you make IO allow Str for Trips, so it's definitely a change I support.

This would allow you to reduce the complexities of both to my most recent post of the two, allow for the flavor of "brute forcing past someone and knocking them down" (IO trip using Str), and allow for major reduction in general combat maneuver rule complexity.

But... can use you use swift actions in the middle of a move? I mean, you can (now) do a bull rush in the middle of a move, but trip is simply a swift action. I'd either have to change it to read the same as bull rush, or have IO give the ability to do trip attacks in place of the bull rush (using Str mod). Hmm... that would make more sense, and preserve the flavor.

You may also want to make IO allow someone to trip creatures that couldn't be normally, with the caveat that such creatures gain a stability bonus and can stand from prone as a free (or even immediate) action. This would even preserve the feel of overrun against creatures like oozes while still keeping the reduced complexity.

Too weird. You can't "trip" a beholder, for instance, and oozes don't have legs - they can't fall "prone". I don't see anything wrong with letting you push past someone with a bull rush - it doesn't add a whole lot of complexity, really; it's just a couple lines. It's basically the fighter's version of tumbling - you get past someone without provoking an AoO, provided you make a successful check.

Slight change of direction here...

Now that we've more or less hashed out the combat maneuvers, I've started to focus on weapons. This thread, which I read last week or so, gave me an idea for exotic weapons, and I've been playing around with a few things. I took the valuing system posted on the WotC forums, ran all the weapons through it (so I could see how they stacked up, not just end values), and tweaked a few things, then made some changes.

Hand crossbow is a simple weapon. All it is, is a small crossbow anyway.

Repeating crossbow is a martial weapon. It doesn't take a whole lot of skill to pull a cocking lever to reload it, especially since it's a free action.

Composite bows cannot be used at all unless you have the requisite Strength bonus (which is how they're supposed to work).

Dire flail, kama, and shurikan are martial weapons. The former is just a bit double flail, and the latter is nothing more than a variant sickle; druids can have their sickles, and monks and fighters can have the kama. Shurikens are thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage. Whoopdedoo. They're worse than throwing knives, if a little more portable.

Bastard sword is gone. I just couldn't figure out how to balance this thing, and I finally said screw it. Bastard swords were fairly rare in medieval Europe anyway.

Nunchaku might become a martial weapon; it's based off the grain flail, which is a peasant's tool - the only ones who ever use them are monks anyway.

For the rest of the exotic weapons, I was thinking of replacing EWP with prereqs, like bkrisher suggested in that other thread. Instead of having prereqs to simply use it, though, the prereqs "unlock" special abilities usable with that weapon, or mitigate a penalty for using it:

Bolas: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Dwarven Urgrosh: Dwarf and Str 13, OR Str 15. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using it as a long-handled waraxe).

Dwarven Waraxe: Dwarf, or Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty (it's an unbalanced weapon, heavy toward the head).

Gnome hooked hammer: Gnome and Dex 13 OR Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using the weapon as a hammer only, dealing 1d8 bludgeoning).

Net: This one really shouldn't be exotic, but nets are hard to use properly - if you don't throw it right, it won't spread out and catch someone. I'm not sure what to do here.

Nunchaku: Dex 15. Benefit: You gain the +2 bonus to disarm attacks.

Orc Double Axe: Str 15, Con 13 OR Orc and Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Sai: Dex 15, or monk. Benefit: You gain the bonus to disarm attempts.

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

Siangham: Dex 13. Benefit: . I'm honestly unsure what to do with this thing, since I have no idea what a siangham IS, beyond what I can see from the picture. It looks like nothing more than a hand-held dart. Maybe it enables you to throw it as a dagger?

Spiked chain: Dex 15. Benefit: Can use the chain to make trip/entangle attacks. (I've also dropped the damage to 1d6.) Honestly, I'm not sure why this weapon doesn't provoke AoOs like a whip - it would make it a good deal more balanced.

Two-bladed sword: Should not be an exotic weapon - all it is, is a staff with blades on both ends. I'd reduce the damage to 1d6 so it's not equivalent to wielding two longswords (this is actually better, since it's a double weapon and the off-end is considered light).

Whip: Dex 13. Benefit: You can make trip/entangle attacks. (The requirement is lower here because whips deal less damage.)

[EjoThims]

But... can use you use swift actions in the middle of a move?

As far as I'm aware, they can be used at any time a free action could. Even if not, however, all it would take is including "as a swift action, even in the middle of a movement or charge."

Too weird. You can't "trip" a beholder

Well no, but you can knock them off balance for a moment, which would be easy to represent mechanically as being prone while giving them the ability to recover with far less effort than most can. Same with oozes and flying creatures. You don't ever need to actually be laying on the floor to be in such a state that prone is a viable mechanical representation of your current situation. I'm a fan of bending flavor to suite mechanics (especially in such similar situations) instead of making a new mechanic for each individual iteration of a similar idea.

Slight change of direction here...

Repeating crossbow is a martial weapon.

Oh noes! Crossbows might actually be useful. 

Composite bows cannot be used at all unless you have the requisite Strength bonus (which is how they're supposed to work).

Just remove the silly Str bonus cap on bows. It's unnecessarily complicated, and really doesn't matter past level 5 or so anyway. If anything, make one type of composite bow that does Str based damage (no matter your Str) if you have a high enough strength (probably 13 or 15), and the standard bow never does Str based damage. This still leaves you in a situation where, even with a high cost, no one who ever uses a bow anyway isn't using a composite bow after level 5ish.

Net: This one really shouldn't be exotic, but nets are hard to use properly - if you don't throw it right, it won't spread out and catch someone. I'm not sure what to do here.

Dex 15 or -4 penalty to use, 10' range increment as a thrown weapon, not 10' max range. Target grappled based on material of net, not just entangled. Or just take the net out and let DMs houserule them, they're an NPC weapon anyway.

Nunchaku: Dex 15. Benefit: You gain the +2 bonus to disarm attacks.

Orc Double Axe: Str 15, Con 13 OR Orc and Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Sai: Dex 15, or monk. Benefit: You gain the bonus to disarm attempts.

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

I have no idea what a siangham IS

Based on it's stats, it's garbage. Mechanically, it's literally a shortspear that you can't throw that costs 3 times as much, but a Monk can flurry with it!  Delete this and let Monks use shortspears.

Spiked chain: Dex 15. Benefit: Can use the chain to make trip/entangle attacks. (I've also dropped the damage to 1d6.) Honestly, I'm not sure why this weapon doesn't provoke AoOs like a whip - it would make it a good deal more balanced.

Spiked Chain is the only PHB exotic weapon worth ever taking a feat for (and really not even then, since the penalties for non-proficient are so low).

I'd suggest Dex 15 to use against adjacent targets, Dex 17 to make trips and such with. 1d6 damage is good, but don't make it provoke. It now does the least damage of any two-handed weapon, and is only superior to other reach weapons tactically if you haven't dumped dex.

Two-bladed sword: Should not be an exotic weapon - all it is, is a staff with blades on both ends. I'd reduce the damage to 1d6 so it's not equivalent to wielding two longswords (this is actually better, since it's a double weapon and the off-end is considered light).

If you drop it to 1d6 on each end, it's no better than using two short swords, but has a higher cost. Making it 1d8/1d6 makes it equal in all ways but cost to long/short sword combo, so reduce it's cost to 25g. Keep it prereq free.

Whip: Dex 13. Benefit: You can make trip/entangle attacks.

Make the whip do lethal damage, not provoke, and allow AoOs, then move it to 15/17 just like the spiked chain. It then becomes the spiked chain's younger brother, trading damage (in base dice and in PA) for increased range.

Everything else seems alright, though it would be best to change all of them to actually granting something (even if it's just a higher damage die or a flat boost to damage, maybe higher crit threat/multiplier) instead of just reducing a penalty. Otherwise there will never be a way to balance the spiked chain and whip with the others without making them both suck as much as the whip does now. Seriously, even with the whip dagger at 1d6 lethal damage you have to specifically build to get any use out of the thing, and the stock does 1d3 subdual... PHB whip is a joke.

[Kerrick]

As far as I'm aware, they can be used at any time a free action could. Even if not, however, all it would take is including "as a swift action, even in the middle of a movement or charge."

True 'nuff.

Oh noes! Crossbows might actually be useful. 

Just remove the silly Str bonus cap on bows. It's unnecessarily complicated, and really doesn't matter past level 5 or so anyway. If anything, make one type of composite bow that does Str based damage (no matter your Str) if you have a high enough strength (probably 13 or 15), and the standard bow never does Str based damage. This still leaves you in a situation where, even with a high cost, no one who ever uses a bow anyway isn't using a composite bow after level 5ish.

That's how bows work now - a normal bow doesn't grant a Strength bonus, only a penalty (if you have one). Composite bows let you add your bonus up to the listed bonus - for instance, a CLB +2 lets you add up to 2 points of Strength bonus. It's just how bows work in real life - they have poundage pulls, and if you're not strong enough, you can't use the bow. Think Odysseus - his bow was so powerful no one but him could pull it.

Dex 15 or -4 penalty to use, 10' range increment as a thrown weapon, not 10' max range. Target grappled based on material of net, not just entangled. Or just take the net out and let DMs houserule them, they're an NPC weapon anyway.

10' range increment is a bit long; I'd let them have an additional 10 feet. Grappled could work, though I'd probably save that for a weighted net.

Based on it's stats, it's garbage. Mechanically, it's literally a shortspear that you can't throw that costs 3 times as much, but a Monk can flurry with it!  Delete this and let Monks use shortspears.

Yeah... it's just a hand-held dart. I have no problem with giving them shortspears - they should have those anyway, since they're basic peasant weapons.

Spiked Chain is the only PHB exotic weapon worth ever taking a feat for (and really not even then, since the penalties for non-proficient are so low).

I'd suggest Dex 15 to use against adjacent targets, Dex 17 to make trips and such with. 1d6 damage is good, but don't make it provoke. It now does the least damage of any two-handed weapon, and is only superior to other reach weapons tactically if you haven't dumped dex.

That works.

If you drop it to 1d6 on each end, it's no better than using two short swords, but has a higher cost. Making it 1d8/1d6 makes it equal in all ways but cost to long/short sword combo, so reduce it's cost to 25g. Keep it prereq free.

If it's martial, it won't have prereqs. I'd definitely drop the cost to around 25 gp - it's nothing more than a staff with two blades on it.

Make the whip do lethal damage, not provoke, and allow AoOs, then move it to 15/17 just like the spiked chain. It then becomes the spiked chain's younger brother, trading damage (in base dice and in PA) for increased range.

Yeah, I never saw the reason for a whip provoking AoOs... it's already a wimpy weapon, and that just makes it worthless.

Everything else seems alright, though it would be best to change all of them to actually granting something (even if it's just a higher damage die or a flat boost to damage, maybe higher crit threat/multiplier) instead of just reducing a penalty.

Yeah.. the penalties were there simply because I couldn't think of anything better. Orcish double axe I could see dealing normal damage for a proficient user (1d6 for non-proficient), since it's so large and unwieldy).

[EjoThims]

Composite bows let you add your bonus up to the listed bonus

I meant that you should either make all bows grant full strength, or make one type of composite bow that grants full strength, none of this silly 'up to a certain amount' stuff. It's needlessly complicated and no other weapon suffers this silliness. Realism isn't grounds for a poor mechanic in a world where people are throwing around fireballs.

10' range increment is a bit long; I'd let them have an additional 10 feet. Grappled could work, though I'd probably save that for a weighted net.

It would still be 50' max, since it's a thrown weapon, and it would still be a crappy weapon, especially if it only entangled like it does now.

Orcish double axe I could see dealing normal damage for a proficient user (1d6 for non-proficient), since it's so large and unwieldy).

Make sure the damage (and crit threat/multiplier) for someone who doesn't meet the prereqs is on par with similar sized martial weapons, that way they will always become at least slightly better when you meet the prereqs.

[Kerrick]

I meant that you should either make all bows grant full strength, or make one type of composite bow that grants full strength, none of this silly 'up to a certain amount' stuff. It's needlessly complicated and no other weapon suffers this silliness. Realism isn't grounds for a poor mechanic in a world where people are throwing around fireballs.

I see no problem with it. *shrug* YMMV.

It would still be 50' max, since it's a thrown weapon, and it would still be a crappy weapon, especially if it only entangled like it does now.

Oh, right... I forgot thrown weapons have 5 increments, not 10.

Make sure the damage (and crit threat/multiplier) for someone who doesn't meet the prereqs is on par with similar sized martial weapons, that way they will always become at least slightly better when you meet the prereqs.

I just changed the damage, not the crits. I actually came up with a better idea: if you meet the Strength req, you can use the weapon to its full potential - for bastard sword and dwarven waraxe, this means one-handed, full damage (yeah, this rule enabled me to keep the BS); for the double axe, you can use it as a double weapon. If you don't fulfill the Str req, you can either a) use it two-handed for full damage (except for the double axe); or b) use it one-handed for reduced damage (as a weapon one size smaller). The BS and waraxe are comparable to the longsword and battle axe this way, so it balances out nicely.

[EjoThims]

if you meet the Strength req, you can use the weapon to its full potential - for bastard sword and dwarven waraxe, this means one-handed, full damage

That does work rather nicely.

As for other topics; your Fighter fix is slightly weak, mainly because most of the combat styles are weak, bear especially. You will often do more damage by using PA than by doubling your base damage, so it would be unreasonable for them to use those options. You also make the mistake of giving a class whose one strength is supposedly the ability to keep going all day abilities based on uses per day, instead of at will or per encounter.

[Kerrick]

As for other topics; your Fighter fix is slightly weak, mainly because most of the combat styles are weak, bear especially. You will often do more damage by using PA than by doubling your base damage, so it would be unreasonable for them to use those options. You also make the mistake of giving a class whose one strength is supposedly the ability to keep going all day abilities based on uses per day, instead of at will or per encounter.

Okay... I'll look it over after work today. I'm currently working on the monsters, because I've been putting those off for far too long.

Edit (to save space): General comments.

Not a lot of the abilities are per-day - there's only Rapid Strike, Might Strike (see below), and Greater Blinding Strike (I'm not exactly sure why I made that 1/day; it should be 1/combat, like Blinding Strike).

The L1 Cat abilities are weak, I know. Quick Draw for all your proficient weapons is half decent, but Acrobatic is little better than a bonus feat. Rapid Strike could use a boost.

Way of the Bear: I have to fix Mighty Strike anyway - I changed crits so that they automatically do full damage for the first die (you only roll for the second/third/etc. dice of damage). I might swap that and Pounding Strike, make PS a move action or something, and make MS compatible with PA.

Way of the Wolverine: I changed Crippling Strike to use light or one-handed, and it can be used 1/round as part of the normal attack routine. Do you have any ideas for another L4? I couldn't think of another one, so there's only one.

BTW, thanks for bringing the fighter to my attention - I didn't realize that some of the changes to combat maneuvers impacted this; it still references Imp Disarm, the sunder rules, and a couple other things.

[EjoThims]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to this.

Not a lot of the abilities are per-day

Currently Frenzy, Mighty Strike (which still does not allow PA, making it likely to do less damage than an attack WITH PA), and Rapid Strike are still limited to uses per day. Any ability based on per day uses is bad when the class revolves around being weaker but having unlimited access to all abilities. But on top of that, these abilities are weak in the first place, but we'll get to that as I go through them all.

Cat:

[spoiler]
L1 is, as you noted, very weak. Give Weapon Finesse (with Dex to damage to make it better than a mere feat) + Quickdraw.

L2 is subpar as well. Blinding Strike is terrible, it's free SA for a class that doesn't grant it, with no other bonus, and Improved Disarm is half a feat.

L3 is also terrible. Rapid Strike is literally not as good as a feat, and Greater Disarm is a skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel - a flashy move that takes 2 skill points to learn but is worth not wasting a feat or class feature for).

L4 is, again, awful. By 16th level the Fighter can do nothing (since you are always flat footed before your turn in intiative, and even if not, you trade a full round of actions for one attack that you can't benefit from since you don't have the SA that it allows you to use), and a mediocre bonus to disarming.

To put it in perspective... Power wise, if you want Fighters to actually keep up with anything (which is the goal of fixing them, no?) then your Level 4 Cat Combat Style should come at roughly Fighter level 6 or so, not 16.[/spoiler]

Bear:
[spoiler]
L1 is a good flavorful low level boost to Intim, and giving penalty-less Monkey Grip as a feature instead of a feat makes it less of a trap. This is not bad at all.

L2 is give and take. Dazing is good, 1/rnd limit at low levels is fine. See my above note on Mighty Strike. It is terrible and would be terrible even if it was at will. Even in core, the +40 potential damage from PA is huge compared weapon + str, even when rolling max damage.

L3 is not good, with Crushing Blow being a nice out of combat boost (though weak for level 12), and Pounding Strike being a level 12 much crappier version of a feat (Knockdown).

L4 is again weak for level 16. Dire Charge is meh at best in core, and ungodly with open access (*shudder*), with Stunning Blow being good BFC, but with the limit to 1/rnd being very inhibitive at level 16.
[/spoiler]

Gorgon:
[spoiler]
L1 is +2 reflex and max +4 AC. Meh, but okay for level 1.

L2 is very blah, with the first benefit not really mattering ,especially as class feature (see my earlier notes on sunder), the second being both boring and less powerful than a feat.

L3 is subpar, especially with the first limited by Con, requiring an action, and giving a penalty. To put it in perspective, my version of the shield fighter gets this at level 5 for all allies in spaces he threatens and with all misses on himself or allies causing subdual damage to opponents, and it's still seen as weak. Shield Strike is already possible, even without the penalty, so it's entirely redundant and useless and blah.

L4 is again well below power curve for 16. I wrote that without even looking, because I know it's going to be true. And here's why it is. He gives up an attack for a +2 to attack a -2 to attack for his opponent's. That is a very small difference, even early game, and it requires giving up an attack! Spell Deflection is equivalent to a PHB2 feat that you can take by like, 3rd level.
[/spoiler]

Wolverine:
[spoiler]
L1 is alright for first level, but a little lacking, and definitely not interesting.

L2 is beneficial for the combat style, but the extra damage is low, the abilities are boring, and the rule confusing. Does it mean he can use a Greatsword while grappling (in which case your other style is totally going to be Bear 1 for Large Greatsword in a grapple) or does it mean he can use the currently allowed weapons but without penalty? Both make sense by what is written.

L3 is just about the only decent L3 set, and only because Crippling is good. Ability damage is especially lacking in melee classes, even with the ease of justifying it, but Pounce is terrible. This is a L1 style benefit, if that, what with the armor restrictions. It also doesn't specify what type of action the leap requires. Move? Standard? Attack? Attack would make it less crappy, but not much.

L4 is very, very weak for level 16, giving less than the level 1 Barbarian rage variant (part of the srd so thusly part of core). I'd suggest at least +6 Str/Dex, +10' move, +1 attack, 2/encounter, and no attack penalty, and even then it's potentially weak for level 16. As for another level 16 ability, some kind of multi-round grapple based SoD or an improvement to Crippling that targets Dex, Str, AND Con with one hit would fit the flavor and be appropriate for the power level.
[/spoiler]

In general, they are all very weak, and if I hadn't checked the chart I would have expected all their 'capstones' to come between levels 4 and 10, not level 16. I'd suggest either vastly increasing their power or adding more levels and reducing them to every other level or every third. I would also highly suggest replacing all the ones that emulate feats (or giving them something extra on top of the general feat for that same ability), as feats are not class features, and giving the fighter a new class feature that just continues to grant feats is really only giving them extra bonus feats, which is still just as boring. The one exception to that, in my mind, is Weapon Focus and the Weapon Spec Tree (which because of their limit to Fighters should have been Fighter class features anyway, which you did, kudos), as they are such common prereqs for other Fighter feats.

Edit: Whoops, qualifiers are important.

[Kerrick]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to this.

Welcome back. I figured you'd gotten caught up in RL.

Currently Frenzy, Mighty Strike (which still does not allow PA, making it likely to do less damage than an attack WITH PA), and Rapid Strike are still limited to uses per day. Any ability based on per day uses is bad when the class revolves around being weaker but having unlimited access to all abilities. But on top of that, these abilities are weak in the first place, but we'll get to that as I go through them all.

Frenzy should be, since it's based on rage (another per-day mechanic). Mighty strike shouldn't be (see below for more comments), and Rapid Strike... ugh. I thought I'd removed all those "stat bonus per day" things because they're annoying.

Cat: L1 is, as you noted, very weak. Give Weapon Finesse (with Dex to damage to make it better than a mere feat) + Quickdraw.

That'd work.

L2 is subpar as well. Blinding Strike is terrible, it's free SA for a class that doesn't grant it, with no other bonus, and Improved Disarm is half a feat.

I can remove the part about making sneak attacks, though someone would likely just house-rule it back in; I'm not sure what else to do with it, besides replace it. IA was originally just the feat, but then the combat maneuvers got revamped

L3 is also terrible. Rapid Strike is literally not as good as a feat, and Greater Disarm is a skill trick (from Complete Scoundrel - a flashy move that takes 2 skill points to learn but is worth wasting a feat or class feature for).

Rapid Strike is the same as the Blinding Speed epic feat (which isn't epic anymore, but still). If Greater Disarm is worth wasting a class feature for, why is it so bad? I mean, I could move it to L2 and combine it with the +2 bonus, but that would break the progression I was trying to build.

L4 is, again, awful. By 16th level the Fighter can do nothing (since you are always flat footed before your turn in intiative, and even if not, you trade a full round of actions for one attack that you can't benefit from since you don't have the SA that it allows you to use), and a mediocre bonus to disarming.

That attack is in addition to any other attacks you can make in the round, on your normal initiative count. This is a free, "before anyone else acts" attack. Though I see your point - it's of limit use, since you have to have the drop on the opponent before you can use it. I need an ability that grants quickened reactions at L1-2; something that lets the fighter not be flat-footed at the beginning of an encounter (unless he's surprised; this is for normal encounters). Hmm.

And yeah, Superior Disarm is kind of lackluster. Having one entire path revolving around disarming is probably not a good idea, in retrospect. They need more flashy moves and cool abilities, not "Wow, another feat."

Bear:

L1 is a good flavorful low level boost to Intim, and giving penalty-less Monkey Grip as a feature instead of a feat makes it less of a trap. This is not bad at all.

Cool. Bear was one of the easier ones to do.

L2 is give and take. Dazing is good, 1/rnd limit at low levels is fine. See my above note on Mighty Strike. It is terrible and would be terrible even if it was at will. Even in core, the +40 potential damage from PA is huge compared weapon + str, even when rolling max damage.

Yeah... looking at it now, it does suck. I'm not sure what to do with it, though.

L3 is not good, with Crushing Blow being a nice out of combat boost (though weak for level 12), and Pounding Strike being a level 12 much crappier version of a feat (Knockdown).

Would Crushing Blow be overpowered if you could use it multiple times/round? I'm not familiar with Knockdown, but I can drop the standard action part (I'm envisioning a big fighter who pounds someone, knocks him down, then advances on him, picks him up [grapple check], then pounds him again). I think that might work.

L4 is again weak for level 16. Dire Charge is meh at best in core, and ungodly with open access (*shudder*),

Eh? I don't follow.

with Stunning Blow being good BFC, but with the limit to 1/rnd being very inhibitive at level 16.

Mm, yeah... what about 1d4 rounds? Power word: stun is 2d4 rounds for mid-level targets, but I'm not too sure about that much for an at-will ability.

Gorgon:
L1 is +2 reflex and max +4 AC. Meh, but okay for level 1.

This was a very hard style to do, so I was reaching a bit for abilities. I could boost the bonuses a bit... +4 wouldn't be too bad for the first, and maybe +1/3 class levels?

L2 is very blah, with the first benefit not really mattering ,especially as class feature (see my earlier notes on sunder), the second being both boring and less powerful than a feat.

See above. I know the first one is pretty blah, but I couldn't come up with anything better. You'd be surprised how little stuff there is for sword/board out there.

L3 is subpar, especially with the first limited by Con, requiring an action, and giving a penalty. To put it in perspective, my version of the shield fighter gets this at level 5 for all allies in spaces he threatens and with all misses on himself or allies causing subdual damage to opponents, and it's still seen as weak.

What kind of game do you play?

Shield Strike is already possible, even without the penalty, so it's entirely redundant and useless and blah.

Eh, forgot about shield bash.

L4 is again well below power curve for 16. I wrote that without even looking, because I know it's going to be true. And here's why it is. He gives up an attack for a +2 to attack a -2 to attack for his opponent's. That is a very small difference, even early game, and it requires giving up an attack! Spell Deflection is equivalent to a PHB2 feat that you can take by like, 3rd level.

Hmm... maybe change the first to 1/round as a free action, he can deflect the weapon, and change the numbers to +/- 4? I didn't know about Spell Deflection (shame on me; I borrowed my friend's copy of PHB2 because I knew it had some shield feats in it and borrowed those for this style, but I somehow missed that). It should be lower level; I could place it at L2.

Wolverine
L1 is alright for first level, but a little lacking, and definitely not interesting.

IUS is kind of required for this style; Great Escape was a late addition, something I tossed in to finish the style. I figure everyone will take IUS, given the focus.

Something I just thought of: What do you think about having each style require a single feat? It would be something that ties into the style (duh), and would obviate the need to grant it at the 1st tier. Bear is Power Attack; Cat would be Imp. Finesse; Gorgon would be... umm.... Imp Shield Bash?; Wolverine would be IUS. I'd bump the progression to 3/7/11/15/19, which would a) give them time to pick up a feat or two in addition to the one they want/need, and b) pick up an extra ability from outside their chosen style, if they want.

L2 is beneficial for the combat style, but the extra damage is low, the abilities are boring, and the rule confusing. Does it mean he can use a Greatsword while grappling (in which case your other style is totally going to be Bear 1 for Large Greatsword in a grapple) or does it mean he can use the currently allowed weapons but without penalty? Both make sense by what is written.

Dirty Fighting is identical to a feat from Song and Silence (and probably Complete Scoundrel). He can use currently-allowed weapons without penalty. If I went with prereq feats, I could move both these down to tier 1, where they would fit much better.

L3 is just about the only decent L3 set, and only because Crippling is good. Ability damage is especially lacking in melee classes, even with the ease of justifying it, but Pounce is terrible. This is a L1 style benefit, if that, what with the armor restrictions. It also doesn't specify what type of action the leap requires. Move? Standard? Attack? Attack would make it less crappy, but not much.

Oh come on... I can't see someone leaping into the air in full plate and carrying 500 pounds of gear, can you? Wolverine-style fighters are intended to wear medium armor... which means they need DR of some kind (just thought of that). They're brawlers, so they would be able to shrug off pain. That would be a good tier 2 ability - graded DR, maybe 2/level in the style.

Regarding pounce, though... it should be equivalent to the creature pounce ability, which gives you a full attack action. Grapple would/could be part of that action, if the fighter chooses to make a grapple check, so I can drop that line. I'll drop it to L2, keep the attack bonus, and grant the a full attack.

L4 is very, very weak for level 16, giving less than the level 1 Barbarian rage variant (part of the srd so thusly part of core). I'd suggest at least +6 Str/Dex, +10' move, +1 attack, 2/encounter, and no attack penalty, and even then it's potentially weak for level 16.

I'm not sure about 2/encounter (that would make it better than rage), but the bonuses ARE lower. I think I just didn't want this to compete with rage, but at L16, it surely doesn't anyway. Maybe drop this to tier 3 and use both your suggestions for L4?

As for another level 16 ability, some kind of multi-round grapple based SoD or an improvement to Crippling that targets Dex, Str, AND Con with one hit would fit the flavor and be appropriate for the power level.

Ooh, ooh! Grapple the opponent, and you can make a check each round to snap its neck, break its back over your knee, etc. I like it!

In general, they are all very weak, and if I hadn't checked the chart I would have expected all their 'capstones' to come between levels 4 and 10, not level 16. I'd suggest either vastly increasing their power or adding more levels and reducing them to every other level or every third. I would also highly suggest replacing all the ones that emulate feats (or giving them something extra on top of the general feat for that same ability), as feats are not class features, and giving the fighter a new class feature that just continues to grant feats is really only giving them extra bonus feats, which is still just as boring.

Yeah... I try not to grant feats as class abilities for that very reason, but I had some major mental blocks while doing these. Thanks for the help, though; I'll do some revisions and post something soon. I've been on a PrC kick lately, so my mind is already in the groove.

The one exception to that, in my mind, is Weapon Focus and the Weapon Spec Tree (which because of their limit to Fighters should have been Fighter class features anyway, which you did, kudos), as they are such common prereqs for other Fighter feats.

That's precisely why I did those - they're restricted to fighters anyway, so it made sense.

[EjoThims]

Frenzy should be, since it's based on rage (another per-day mechanic).

Rage should not be /day either.

I can remove the part about making sneak attacks, though someone would likely just house-rule it back in

Well firstly if you stick with the name Blinding Strike go with something that actually renders the target blind, or effectively blind. Such as perhaps allowing the Fighter to, in the first round of combat, move with such a sudden burst of speed that he is effectively invisible (at the start of his turn). This would allow the triggering of SA anyway, without cluttering up the Fighter over something he doesn't possess.

Rapid Strike... If Greater Disarm is worth wasting a class feature for, why is it so bad? I mean, I could move it to L2 and combine it with the +2 bonus, but that would break the progression I was trying to build.

Rapidstrike is so bad because of the /day limit. If it was limited to /encounter even it would be less useful overall than Rapid Shot. For level 1 it really wouldn't be that strong to allow it to just be on all the time, even with no penalty (still lagging one extra attack behind the monk at this point).

That attack is in addition to any other attacks you can make in the round, on your normal initiative count. This is a free, "before anyone else acts" attack.

I'd suggest his wording then, as currently it doesn't actually suggest that and is impossible since it happens before others' turns but waits until the Fighter's turn to happen:

"At the start of every encounter, you are automatically entitled to a surprise round."

This will accomplish all the same goals, and remove all the redundancies (like being able to draw a weapon when you've already got Quick Draw and granting SA when they're already flat-footed if they haven't acted yet).

I would actually move this down to the earlier one, myself, and then for the L4 version make it:

"You can make a normal round's worth of actions in the surprise round."

They need more flashy moves and cool abilities, not "Wow, another feat."

This. Especially when the majority of the other class features are still "You get a feat! Ya!," any ability which effectively gives a feat should actually be stronger than the standard version.

looking at it now, it does suck. I'm not sure what to do with it, though.

Make it very limited uses per encounter, one or two tops, and then allow PA to work with it.

Would Crushing Blow be overpowered if you could use it multiple times/round?

No.

I'm not familiar with Knockdown, but I can drop the standard action part (I'm envisioning a big fighter who pounds someone, knocks him down, then advances on him, picks him up [grapple check], then pounds him again). I think that might work.

Effectively every hit you do over X damage causes a free trip against your target.

Eh? I don't follow.

Double damage on charge at 16 is pretty lackluster in core. With open access to all books, it's obscenely crazy. UberERCharger should be linked around here somewhere.

but I'm not too sure about that much for an at-will ability.

It's not at will though, it's once per round. Just allow it at will, and now the Fighter has a chance to keep multiple opponents stunned, but it's very low because of reach concerns and accuracy of iterative attacks + PA.

+4 wouldn't be too bad for the first, and maybe +1/3 class levels?

That sounds good, especially since it would then continue to scale.

You'd be surprised how little stuff there is for sword/board out there.

There's plenty you can do. Here's mine that I was referencing. Under the first spoiler, down at Shield Fighting.

What kind of game do you play?

The kind where AC is the worst defense possible, damage the worst offense possible, and where a level 2 spell is enough to stop the vast majority of level 20 melee characters. Standard 3.5 DnD with open access to all official books.

Hmm... maybe change the first to 1/round as a free action, he can deflect the weapon, and change the numbers to +/- 4?

I'd drop it altogether, personally. At that level the numbers are either going to be absurdly high or too weak. Maybe move it back, but it would still be better to set up a type of parry mechanic, allowing them to sack shield bash attacks to add that shield bash attack's attack bonus to their AC against one incoming attack. I used something similar in my TWF set up (which you can tack on top of Shield Fighting, style and ability synergy, it's what Fighter and so many styles currently lack).

IUS is kind of required for this style; Great Escape was a late addition, something I tossed in to finish the style. I figure everyone will take IUS, given the focus.

IUS is fine to give as a starting point, as you note. But it's kind of blah, especially when paired with Great Escape. In place of IUS you should give a different ability that gives the same benefits (even if it just says "You gain this feat") but then gives something else as well. L1 here can be easily combined:

"Adept Grappler: The fighter is more adept at using his fists even when not wrestling and at getting out of holds and pins placed on him by others; he gains the Improved Unarmed Attack feat and a +2 bonus to his check when attempting to break free of a grapple."

You then, of course, need to supply another secondary L1 benefit.

Something I just thought of: What do you think about having each style require a single feat?

That's very close to what I did with my versions. I made them require Weapon Focus/Spec in an applicable weapon (which then apply to all weapons applicable for that style) and a few skill ranks (all of which became Fighter class skills) as well, but then allow them to switch between styles (even at will with a feat, provided they meet the prereqs) and combine different weaker styles together with other feats (all granting all there benefits based on fighter level).

He can use currently-allowed weapons without penalty.

I'd highly suggest clarifying that.

Oh come on... I can't see someone leaping into the air in full plate and carrying 500 pounds of gear, can you?

Regarding pounce, though... it should be equivalent to the creature pounce ability, which gives you a full attack action. Grapple would/could be part of that action, if the fighter chooses to make a grapple check, so I can drop that line. I'll drop it to L2, keep the attack bonus, and grant the a full attack.

I also can't see someone realistically (and effectively) swinging around a 10' tall sword four times in six seconds (which you allow at level 1), nor creating a ball of fire out of bat dung that flies for over a thousand feet before exploding. Especially by the time this ability is granted, I see no problem with a well experienced and very strong physical combatant doing this.

I do like changing it to normal pounce though.

That would be a good tier 2 ability - graded DR, maybe 2/level in the style.

Yes it would.

I'm not sure about 2/encounter (that would make it better than rage),

Again a hint of what my suggestions for your Barbarian are going to be.

Maybe drop this to tier 3 and use both your suggestions for L4?

That would certainly work. Somewhere in there you need Improved Grab with style appropriate weapons, so that a hit with a hand axe or a dagger or osme such allows you to initiate grapple.

Grapple the opponent, and you can make a check each round to snap its neck, break its back over your knee, etc. I like it!

Exactly. The problem comes in that you have to do it delicately. An at will SoD is a very powerful thing, especially when Fighters currently don't have anything that nice. The Reaping Mauler from CW has a similar ability by which it must hold a pin for three rounds and then the target must make a save based on Wis, and this is generally seen as a ridiculous amount of time and a lack of synergy. I'd personally suggest that the pin must be maintained for a full round and then a full round action used with a save based on Str. This would then always require at least 2 rounds worth of actions for the fighter, and give the opponent at least one chance on his own turn to escape the pin and stop the maneuver.

Yeah... I try not to grant feats as class abilities for that very reason

Feats as class abilities are not necessarily bad, they should just always grant a little more than simply taking the feat would.

[Kerrick]

Rage should not be /day either.

Eh. I changed the barbarian so that battleragers get 3 extra rages/day, above what's listed on the table, but I think 1/encounter is more than sufficient - encounters rarely, if ever, last more than 10 rounds, and a mid-level barbarian can easily rage for that long.

Well firstly if you stick with the name Blinding Strike go with something that actually renders the target blind, or effectively blind. Such as perhaps allowing the Fighter to, in the first round of combat, move with such a sudden burst of speed that he is effectively invisible (at the start of his turn). This would allow the triggering of SA anyway, without cluttering up the Fighter over something he doesn't possess.

It's "blinding" as in "faster than the eye can see". Becoming "invisible" is more the monk's thing, and semi-supernatural at that. I see why it sucks, though - it's part of his normal attack routine, and takes place on his turn. I'll make it an additional attack, which takes place before initiative is rolled (as long as he's not surprised), and he can make a 5-foot step. This should be enough to keep it at to L2.

Aside: I was looking at your revised fighter, and Sudden Attack hit me as a perfect L1 Cat ability. Duh...

Rapidstrike is so bad because of the /day limit. If it was limited to /encounter even it would be less useful overall than Rapid Shot. For level 1 it really wouldn't be that strong to allow it to just be on all the time, even with no penalty (still lagging one extra attack behind the monk at this point).

Hmm... I could make it the same as Rapid Shot, but what about TWF? Just rule that you only get it with the main weapon? I know what you'll say - TWF is weak enough to allow it, but I'm just thinking of the extra dice-rolling.

I'd suggest his wording then, as currently it doesn't actually suggest that and is impossible since it happens before others' turns but waits until the Fighter's turn to happen:

"At the start of every encounter, you are automatically entitled to a surprise round."

This will accomplish all the same goals, and remove all the redundancies (like being able to draw a weapon when you've already got Quick Draw and granting SA when they're already flat-footed if they haven't acted yet).

Yeah. Have you ever seen Equilibrium? There's a scene near the end of the movie where the hero is facing off against the BBEG and his lieutenant; the LT steps forward, and the hero draws his sword, steps up, and slash-slash-slash (literally, 3 swings). The both stand still for a moment, then the LT's pistols fall from concealed forearm holsters, he falls to his knees, and his face slides off his skull. Really cool.

Anyway, that's what I saw for Greater Blinding Strike, after I read your suggestion - you can get a full round of attacks before anyone else acts, but you can only make a 5-foot step.

This. Especially when the majority of the other class features are still "You get a feat! Ya!," any ability which effectively gives a feat should actually be stronger than the standard version.

Yeah. Sometimes it takes someone pointing things out to me to see how much they suck.

Make it [mighty strike] very limited uses per encounter, one or two tops, and then allow PA to work with it.

And keep it as a standard action? Sounds good to me.

Effectively every hit you do over X damage causes a free trip against your target.

Ohh... what's X?

Double damage on charge at 16 is pretty lackluster in core. With open access to all books, it's obscenely crazy. UberERCharger should be linked around here somewhere.

Hmm. Considering the PC will most likely be using PA, how is that lackluster? I'm trying to think of something that typefies "Huge guy with large weapon barreling down on someone", and double damage on a hit seems like the best bet. I'd go triple, but that's broken even for core only. I could add the ability to knock the opponent down/back, as per Pounding Strike... since it's only on a charge, it doesn't obviate the previous ability.

It's not at will though, it's once per round. Just allow it at will, and now the Fighter has a chance to keep multiple opponents stunned, but it's very low because of reach concerns and accuracy of iterative attacks + PA.

True, true...

There's plenty you can do. Here's mine that I was referencing. Under the first spoiler, down at Shield Fighting.

Wow. There's some badass stuff there. I am definitely yoinking some of it.

The kind where AC is the worst defense possible, damage the worst offense possible, and where a level 2 spell is enough to stop the vast majority of level 20 melee characters. Standard 3.5 DnD with open access to all official books.

That explains a lot. You're not playing a high-power game, but it's certainly higher than core level, and you guys pull out all the stops.

I'd drop it altogether, personally. At that level the numbers are either going to be absurdly high or too weak. Maybe move it back, but it would still be better to set up a type of parry mechanic, allowing them to sack shield bash attacks to add that shield bash attack's attack bonus to their AC against one incoming attack. I used something similar in my TWF set up (which you can tack on top of Shield Fighting, style and ability synergy, it's what Fighter and so many styles currently lack).

Hmm. I see the point; this path needs a Shield Bash ability (TWF when using the shield only), for this to build on, but it could work.

IUS is fine to give as a starting point, as you note. But it's kind of blah, especially when paired with Great Escape. In place of IUS you should give a different ability that gives the same benefits (even if it just says "You gain this feat") but then gives something else as well. L1 here can be easily combined:

"Adept Grappler: The fighter is more adept at using his fists even when not wrestling and at getting out of holds and pins placed on him by others; he gains the Improved Unarmed Attack feat and a +2 bonus to his check when attempting to break free of a grapple."

You then, of course, need to supply another secondary L1 benefit.

Heh, yeah. I think I'll drop both of them - IUS will become a prereq feat, and Great Escape can just die. I was thinking of taking Close Quarters Fighter and making it L1; the fighter can fight in cramped quarters or in a grapple without penalty (but it doesn't allow for use of a larger weapon - I'll clarify that). Dirty Fighting will be the other L1 ability, since it's pretty weak (and maybe boost it to 1d6).

That's very close to what I did with my versions. I made them require Weapon Focus/Spec in an applicable weapon (which then apply to all weapons applicable for that style) and a few skill ranks (all of which became Fighter class skills) as well, but then allow them to switch between styles (even at will with a feat, provided they meet the prereqs) and combine different weaker styles together with other feats (all granting all there benefits based on fighter level).

I see that. I'm not exactly sure why I started the combat styles at L1, since every class that has a path starts at L3 or higher.

I also can't see someone realistically (and effectively) swinging around a 10' tall sword four times in six seconds (which you allow at level 1), nor creating a ball of fire out of bat dung that flies for over a thousand feet before exploding. Especially by the time this ability is granted, I see no problem with a well experienced and very strong physical combatant doing this.

I do like changing it to normal pounce though.

How about this: make it part of a move, and you can leap up to half your movement distance and make a full attack, but keep the restrictions? Oh, and it would be considered a charge (instead of all that gobbledygook text I have in there). I could drop this to L2, along with the DR.

For L3, I want to steal Fury of the Beast - that's pure Wolverine style there. Make it so that he can enter a frenzy if he's damaged, and the frenzy extends each time he's hit, but he's exhausted (as per rage) after it ends. The Improved Grab with style weapons could work as the other L3.

Exactly. The problem comes in that you have to do it delicately. An at will SoD is a very powerful thing, especially when Fighters currently don't have anything that nice. The Reaping Mauler from CW has a similar ability by which it must hold a pin for three rounds and then the target must make a save based on Wis, and this is generally seen as a ridiculous amount of time and a lack of synergy. I'd personally suggest that the pin must be maintained for a full round and then a full round action used with a save based on Str. This would then always require at least 2 rounds worth of actions for the fighter, and give the opponent at least one chance on his own turn to escape the pin and stop the maneuver.

We ("we" being I and another guy) had rules for breaking someone's neck in Crimson Contracts, the assassin's book. I overhauled those rules for the 3.5 version (which never saw print), but it basically took three rounds, with an opposed grapple check each round. I always thought that was a bit too long, but two rounds is just about right - Fort save vs. 10 + 1/2 fighter level + Str mod to avoid dying. And add size restriction of one size larger - I just can't see a human snapping a dragon's neck.

[Kerrick]

Way of the Bear
[spoiler]
  The focus of this combat style can be summed up in one word: power. Specialists are almost always hulking brutes, as great strength (and often large size) is required to wield large weapons (greatswords, heavy maces, greataxes, etc.) to greatest effect. Those who follow this style are often slow to attack, but they rely on their heavy armor to protect them from attackers while they give as well as (or better than) they get.

  Strength, followed closely by Constitution, are the main stats for fighters who choose this style.

  Prerequisites: 1st: Power Attack; 3rd: Improved Offense

Level I

  Imposing Size: The fighter can use his sheer size (and the threat of his huge weapon) to intimidate opponents. He can use his Strength bonus instead of Cha, if it is higher, when making Intimidate checks to demoralize opponents; he also gains a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks in general when wielding his weapon.

  Oversized Weapon: The fighter can use a weapon of one size larger without penalty, due to his strength and proficiency with wielding large weapons.

Level II

  Dazing Blow: If the fighter uses Power Attack to strike a foe and scores a hit, the target must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 damage) or be dazed for one round. This ability can be used once per round.

  Mighty Strike: Once per day per three class levels, the fighter can declare a mighty strike. As a standard action, he can make a single attack at his highest base attack bonus, with a +4 bonus. If the attack hits, he deals double damage. If the attack scores a crit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled. This ability can be used in conjunction with Power Attack.

Level III

  Crushing Blow: If the fighter makes an attack against a helpless opponent or an unattended object, he automatically deals double damage on a successful strike. If he makes a critical hit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled. This ability can be used as many times per round as the fighter has attacks, and can be used in conjunction with Power Attack.

  Pounding Strike: Once per round, the fighter can attempt to knock an opponent of up to one size larger back 5 feet, or knock it prone, with an attack. He must declare his intent before the attack is made (it can be any of the attacks made that round); if it hits and deals enough damage, the opponent is knocked back or prone. The fighter must deal at least 30 points of damage against a Medium opponent; each size larger increases the damage by 10, and each size smaller reduces it by 5.

Level IV

  Dire Charge: If the fighter makes a successful attack as part of a charge, he deals double damage. If the attack scores a critical hit, the crit is applied first, then the damage is doubled. If he deals enough damage, he also knocks the opponent back or prone, as per Pounding Strike. This ability works automatically - the fighter need only declare whether or not he wants to knock the opponent back or down. If he pushes the opponent back, it acts as a bull rush; the opponent is knocked back up to twice as far as normal, and if it hits an obstacle, it takes 1d4 points of damage per 10 feet it was moved.

  Stunning Blow:Prerequisites: 1st: Quick Draw; 3rd: Improved Finesse

Level I

  Sudden Attack: The fighter gains a +4 bonus to initiative checks. This stacks with the bonus granted by the Improved Initiative feat.


Level II

  Blinding Strike: Once per combat, before initiative is rolled, the fighter can take a combat stride and make a single attack. This is in addition to the normal number of attacks he can make in a round.

  Greater Disarm:Level III

  Rapid Strike: The fighter can make an extra attack at her highest base attack bonus as part of her normal attack routine, but all attacks made that round suffer a -2 penalty. If he is using two weapons, he gains the extra attack with his main hand only.

  Quick Riposte: Each time an opponent makes a melee attack against the fighter and misses, he can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent, provided he has any available. He also gains an additional number of attacks of opportunity equal to the number of levels he has in this style.

Level IV

  Greater Blinding Strike: At the beginning of combat, before initiative is rolled, the fighter can take a combat stride and make a full round of melee attacks against any target in reach. Feats or abilities like Cleave or Great Cleave that grant extra attacks cannot be used in conjunction with this ability.[/spoiler]

Way of the Gorgon
[spoiler]
  The Way of the Gorgon combat style (colloquially called "sword and board") is by far the most common of all the styles. Within the discipline itself, though, the individuals vary widely. Some choose to use a buckler and a light weapon like a rapier or longsword, gaining some defense while maintaining speed and grace, while others favor the more conventional light shield and sword, mace or hammer; still others (usually the larger fighters) go for a heavier shield and a heavy bludgeoning weapon like a heavy mace or morningstar, bashing opponents with their shields as often as their weapons. True defensive fighters choose the tower shield, using it to create a bulwark behind which other party members can shelter. These fighters work best in conjunction with others of their type, however; a shield wall formed by fighters with tower shields trained in this style is near-impregnable.

  Constitution, followed closely by Strength, are the stats of choice for fighters who train in this style.

  Prerequisites: 1st: Improved Shield Bash; 3rd: Hold the Line (new feat; lets a shield fighter stop a charging creature if he makes an opposed check, grants a bonus to opposed bull rush checks to avoid being knocked back)

Level I

  Shield Fighting: The fighter can use his shield as a secondary weapon, as if he had the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. Bucklers and light shields are treated as light weapons; heavy shields are one-handed weapons. Tower shields cannot be used as secondary weapons.

  Shield Focus: When using a shield of any type, the fighter's shield bonus is increased by +2 for each level he has in this combat style.

Level II

  Bulwark: A fighter using a light, heavy, or tower shield can grant his shield bonus to all adjacent allies as a dodge bonus. He can use this ability each round, as long as he is not using the shield as a weapon. ((Does Imp. Shield Bash let you keep the bonus to allies as well as yourself?))

  Shield Rush: When using a shield and performing a bull rush, the fighter gains a bonus to his opposed Strength check to push his opponent back equal to twice the shield's AC bonus (+2 for buckler, +4 for light, +6 for heavy, or +10 for tower).

Level III

  Bulette Charge: If the fighter makes a charge attack, he can attack with his shield instead of his main weapon; if the attack hits, the opponent must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter's level + Str mod) or be dazed for 1d4 rounds.

  Improved Parry: If an opponent makes a melee attack against the fighter and misses by 1 or 2 points, the fighter is considered to have deflected the attack; the opponent loses its next attack while it gets its weapon back in line. If it can make only one attack per round (or one attack with that weapon), it instead suffers a -2 penalty to its first attack with that weapon on the next round.

Level IV

  Shield Wall:Prerequisites: 1st: Improved Unarmed Strike; 3rd: Improved Offense

Level I

  Close Quarters Combat: The fighter suffers no penalty to attacks made in cramped quarters or while grappling. This does not allow him to use weapons larger than normally allowed, however.

  Dirty Fighting: The fighter deals an extra 1d4 points of damage from melee attacks made while grappling.

Level II

  Pain Resistance: The fighter gains DR 2/-. This increases by 2 points per level he gains in this style; it overlaps similar DR gained from other classes/abilities, like the barbarian's DR.
 
  Pounce: The fighter can make a Jump check as part of a charge, with a bonus equal to twice his level in this style.

Level III

  Crippling Strike: Once per round, when striking with a light or one-handed weapon, the fighter can strike an opponent's weak spot such that it deals 2 points of Strength or Dex damage (fighter's choice). Ability points lost to damage return at the rate of 1 point per day of rest. He can use this ability while grappling.

  Frenzy: If the fighter takes damage from any source, he can choose to go into a frenzy. He gains a +2 bonus to Strength, and the rage lasts for 1 round per point of his Con bonus. If he takes damage again, the frenzy is extended by the same amount of time (this applies only once per round), but he can do so only as many times as he has fighter levels.

Level IV

  Kill the Opponent: If the fighter is grappling an opponent and has it pinned, he can attempt to instantly kill it. In order to do so, he must have it pinned for at least one full round; on the next round, the opponent must make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 fighter's class level + fighter's Str mod) or die. This ability is not usable against constructs, elementals, incorporeal creatures, oozes, plants, or undead, but otherwise works against creatures that are resistant or immune to critical hits or death from massive damage.

  Talons of the Beast: If the fighter makes a successful attack with a light or one-handed piecing weapon, he can make an immediate grapple check that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. All bonuses he normally gains apply to this check.[/spoiler]

[EjoThims]

1/encounter is more than sufficient

With only the basic rage, it is. But 2-3 allows for some strategic thinking, as well as making it a lot harder for the rare guerrilla style opponent to wait it out.

This should be enough to keep it at to L2.

Sounds good, especially with the Greater below.

I was looking at your revised fighter, and Sudden Attack hit me as a perfect L1 Cat ability.

From the Boar? Yea, it would work very well in your Cat set up, kind of surprised I didn't suggest it myself. 

Hmm... I could make it the same as Rapid Shot, but what about TWF?

It would work exactly the same as Rapid Shot does with TWF. If TWF scales, best to either make a note on each that it grants one extra attack after TWF, or make a note on TWF that it only scales based off attacks granted through BAB, no other sources.

And keep it as a standard action?

Yep. Now they can get one good attack that they are confident will hit (even after PA) for massive damage, but not be able to use it even with charging or spring attack (since those only allow attack actions).

Ohh... what's X?

I don't recall. I believe it's 10 or 15 (but massive damage is 50, they obviously didn't take damage done into account when making their scales). It could really be anything you wanted to set it at, but I think 25-30 would be a good range, since it's for the 2H style anyway.

I could add the ability to knock the opponent down/back, as per Pounding Strike... since it's only on a charge, it doesn't obviate the previous ability.

Wow. There's some badass stuff there. I am definitely yoinking some of it.

Feel free. I'd say something about being cited somewhere, but at this point I'd hope for at least a litle one one anyway.

That explains a lot. You're not playing a high-power game, but it's certainly higher than core level, and you guys pull out all the stops.

Yep. Gentleman's contract style games... However far anyone decides to push it is as far as everyone else can, including the DM.

this path needs a Shield Bash ability (TWF when using the shield only), for this to build on, but it could work.

You could have it eat AoOs or mainhand attacks as well, but honestly, most people that sword and board TWF with sword and shield bash anyway, so I would indeed recommend giving a boost to that in the Gorgon path.

Close Quarters Fighter and making it L1; the fighter can fight in cramped quarters or in a grapple without penalty (but it doesn't allow for use of a larger weapon - I'll clarify that). Dirty Fighting will be the other L1 ability, since it's pretty weak (and maybe boost it to 1d6).

This would work very well I think.

How about this: make it part of a move, and you can leap up to half your movement distance and make a full attack, but keep the restrictions? Oh, and it would be considered a charge (instead of all that gobbledygook text I have in there). I could drop this to L2, along with the DR.

Honestly, I'd suggest just granting pounce, but also allowing them to make a jump check as part of a charge (including a bonus to the check). This allows them to 'charge' into areas they couldn't otherwise, since they can leap up onto things or over difficult terrain, and jump is already restricted by heavy armor in addition to having heavy armor reduce speed to further lower your jump checks.

For L3, I want to steal Fury of the Beast - that's pure Wolverine style there. Make it so that he can enter a frenzy if he's damaged, and the frenzy extends each time he's hit, but he's exhausted (as per rage) after it ends. The Improved Grab with style weapons could work as the other L3.

Scaling it off damage (either duration or intensity) would work very well, especially with DR coming at he lower level. Harder to hurt, but when you do, goes nuts.

And add size restriction of one size larger - I just can't see a human snapping a dragon's neck.

You should let them use it on anyone they can pin. Cause if they have the feat + check to pin a dragon long enough to twist it's head off, chances are they can.

[Kerrick]

From the Boar? Yea, it would work very well in your Cat set up, kind of surprised I didn't suggest it myself. 

Hehe. I was going to say "it's the same as a feat" but since it stacks with Imp Init, it's better.

It would work exactly the same as Rapid Shot does with TWF. If TWF scales, best to either make a note on each that it grants one extra attack after TWF, or make a note on TWF that it only scales based off attacks granted through BAB, no other sources.

Yeah, I changed TWF so it scales - there's only the base feat, and you gain additional attacks automatically.

Yep. Now they can get one good attack that they are confident will hit (even after PA) for massive damage, but not be able to use it even with charging or spring attack (since those only allow attack actions).

Power Attack is an attack action - I never changed it.

I don't recall. I believe it's 10 or 15 (but massive damage is 50, they obviously didn't take damage done into account when making their scales). It could really be anything you wanted to set it at, but I think 25-30 would be a good range, since it's for the 2H style anyway.

Okay.

That sounds good.

And I meant lackluster as in "kind of boring." For a 16th level ability, as impressive as more damage is, it's just another set of numbers when your numbers are already impressive anyway, plus, once yo charge, it is usually difficult to charge the same enemy again.

Ah.

Feel free. I'd say something about being cited somewhere, but at this point I'd hope for at least a litle one one anyway.

You've been on my Credits page for awhile now (I recently put the link in the side bar, instead of on just the Misc page so people could find it). I'll revise your credits after we're done with this; you definitely deserve a pile of kudos.

I know I probably shouldn't mention this, but I will anyway... I firmly believe in giving credit where credit is due, unlike some folks *cough*Paizo*cough*. I know for a fact some of their feats came from the Netbook of Feats, and I'm fairly sure some of their stuff came from Project Phoenix - I posted an idea for fixing cross-class skills on ENWorld, and two weeks later, it showed up in their Alpha 2 rules. I've been following a thread on ENWorld about previews and such for their final release, and a lot of it is stuff I've already got. I don't mind them using it (that's why I put it all online), but some credit would be nice...

You could have it eat AoOs or mainhand attacks as well, but honestly, most people that sword and board TWF with sword and shield bash anyway, so I would indeed recommend giving a boost to that in the Gorgon path.

That, and it fits with the TWF side of the Gorgon style.

Honestly, I'd suggest just granting pounce, but also allowing them to make a jump check as part of a charge (including a bonus to the check). This allows them to 'charge' into areas they couldn't otherwise, since they can leap up onto things or over difficult terrain, and jump is already restricted by heavy armor in addition to having heavy armor reduce speed to further lower your jump checks.

I like that - it makes more sense, and gives fighters a reason to actually dump points into Jump.

Scaling it off damage (either duration or intensity) would work very well, especially with DR coming at he lower level. Harder to hurt, but when you do, goes nuts.

*nodnod*

You should let them use it on anyone they can pin. Cause if they have the feat + check to pin a dragon long enough to twist it's head off, chances are they can.

That makes sense. There are restrictions on how big an opponent you can pin, so it all works out.

Edit: Check up a few posts. I put all the revised abilities there for review.