The 3.5 Cleric Handbook

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The type pyramid is
A) Outdated 3.0 material
B) Superceded by the specific rules on every type-changing template ever
C) Contradicted by the DMG, and hence superceded by that as well
D) Really Dumb

[AfterCrescent]

I would give you fu if we still had it, TML. Very nice summary

[archangel.arcanis]

well i didn't see it in the handbook itself and glancing though the thread i didn't notice either. So what does everyone think of Raptorian for clerics most notably the Skypledge PrC.  Both are in Races of the Wild.

My thoughts in brief:
Raptorians gain flight and don't have a LA.
Low light vision is never a bad thing to have.
Free +1 cl on Air spells, mostly just longer summons but not terrible.
Skypledge makes earth, fire, and water spells bad choices for you. but no entry costs leaving valuable feats available.
Spell Pool lets you pick any spell without earth, fire, or water descriptor from the Cleric or Druid list, adds huge versatility for you.
Winds abilities are ok, but not game shattering.

[AfterCrescent]

They're average. The flight requires feats to make maneuverability better and even more to make you able to fly in non-light armor.

No bonuses for a cleric, really. If you're 'air' themed, Skypledge can work, but there's nothing superb in that either.  Overall, it's not bad, pretty flavorful, but nothing amazing.

[Agita]

The type pyramid is
A) Outdated 3.0 material
B) Superceded by the specific rules on every type-changing template ever
C) Contradicted by the DMG, and hence superceded by that as well
D) Really Dumb

Very good points, TML. I couldn't have put it better.

[aund]

loved the guide and started rebuilding my cleric according to your collected infos and hints 
my only problem is that I'm racewise stuck with dwarf and that DMM got hit by the nerfstick: can only DMM quicken/persist spells that i could actually quicken/persist without DMM. so no persisted divine power for me
I still think it's a good way to bring DMM back to earth.
Since my group is already quite good at melee i thought about going ranged with hammerthrow. Is there a way to do this without totally crippling you feat/CL-wise or buying many dwarven throwers? 4 lvl bloodstorm blade isn't really an option either but i thought it a very fluffy option for a ranged dwarven cleric.

[Sinatar]

This is an informative read-up. However, I'm surprised that one of the best Cleric feats out there is not listed: Divine Spell Power (CD). A cleric with this feat can easily cast a spell at +4 Caster Level, at the cost of a single Turning attempt. Let's say a 10th level Cleric with 16 CHA and 5 ranks in Knowledge (religion) uses this feat in casting a spell. Without any other factors, the turning roll will be at a +8. If the cleric rolls anything above a '4,' it's going to improve his caster level. If he rolls a '14' or better, his caster level will be at +4. As you can see, these odds can easily be improved with little effort for easy power. In terms of cost effeciency, this feat is one of the best for clerics. The faith feats in CD are also worth noting (Pious Soul, Spellsurge, Defense).

I'm also surprised the spell Divine Retribution from CC wasn't even mentioned. At mid levels, it's easily the best damage-dealing tool a cleric can have at his disposal. "You even think about touching me, my god will bitch-slap you."

[AfterCrescent]

Divine Spell Power is not a terrible feat, but neither is it good.  Let's look at your options for turning attempts, shall we?

1. Don't do anything with them. - This is a waste of a class feature, and yes, if you are going to do this, DSP is a good feat to take.
2. Divine Metamagic - If you are going this route, your turn attempts will be used up in spell casting, so you may have 1-3  turn attempts in any given day that you can use. That means you're taking a feat to get a -1 to a +4 bonus on 1-3 spells per day. That's not good.  It's way to limited. It's like the Sudden Metamagic feats. They're traps.
3. Turning undead - You're not wasting attempts on metamagic then, are you?
4. Something subpar - This may, or may not, be a better option.

The key thing I'm seeing is that it's risky (you won't always be guaranteed a positive result) and it's limited to 3+Cha times per day. Get a magic item that does something similar or better (ioun stone). That's my take on it, though. YMMV.

I didn't note the [Faith] feats because it's a variant. And to be honest, It's a "GM may I?" variant. I'm not a fan of those. And, of course, I've never seen them used, so I can't judge their actual effectiveness.

Divine Retribution is okay. Nothing amazing. It's a one shot. It's not even an effective nova. At level 9, you do 9d6 damage when they beat you in the face, and they can save for half? That's okay, but I'd rather prepare something much more useful.

[PhaedrusXY]

The type pyramid is
A) Outdated 3.0 material
B) Superceded by the specific rules on every type-changing template ever
C) Contradicted by the DMG, and hence superceded by that as well
D) Really Dumb

Oh yeah? And you're a silly poopyhead! Nyah nyah nyah! 

[pfooti]

Divine Spell Power is not a terrible feat, but neither is it good.  Let's look at your options for turning attempts, shall we?

I'm actually quite fond of Divine Spell Power, for a number of reasons. First of all, clerics can do insane things to their caster level (prayer beads, ankh of ascension, DSP) that wizards just can't duplicate. There are some really interesting things that this empowers, Holy Word abuse is the first thing that springs to mind. Even lower-level stuff like duration and/or level-scaling effects are pretty good too (my clerics tend to cast mass resist elements and mass conviction pretty regularly, and having an extra 10 min/level is good, bumping to the next tier of quality is even better).

The other reason I like DSP is because I avoid Divine Metamagic. It's a personal preference, really - DMM is just too good a feat. Being able to break the spell level metamagic cap via DMM (quickening / persisting a highest-level spell) is so good that it ends up raising the general power level of my cleric beyond the rest of the party.

Then again, abusing Holy Word at high CL is just as bad, really, so who am I to complain?

There's also the opportunity cost- you're probably looking at something like four feats to support good use of DMM (extend, persist, DMM:Persist, extra turning * n), or constraining your domain choices (planning, undeath) accordingly, and once you start really (ab)using DMM:Persist, your DM is going to pay much closer attention to the rules for dispel magic. DMM:Quicken is cheaper (no prereqs on quicken, fewer turn attempts to power, more flexibility), but still costs a sizable portion of your relatively limited amount of feats.

So, I guess what I'm saying is: if you're not using DMM, DSP is great. If you are, I agree that you probably would be better off taking another copy of Extra Turning instead.

[AfterCrescent]

Good analysis, pfooti, and thanks for that.

I'll admit I haven't played with DSP, but it still doesn't seem that great. I suppose it's the limited use of it that is bothering me.  If I'm not going to be a DMM cleric, what Cha can I honestly expect? Most clerics that don't plan on using DMM, will have a base 10, maybe 12 Cha.  If that's the case, we're looking at 3-4 times per day you can get MAYBE a bonus, but maybe a penalty to a spell?

What's your Cha usually like on clerics that you use DSP with? I like your analysis, and I agree that clerics can do some crazy CL boosting, but I would argue in this case, the DM may be paying attention to dispel magic anyways.

[pfooti]

If you use DSP primarily to power long-term buffs, you don't need to cast at a penalty, since the effect only lasts a round, although wasting a turn attempt is always sad. I tend to run clerics in the range of a base charisma of 12. A circlet of persuasion and a cloak (or whatever) of +2 charisma are also standard fare for my (actually played as well as hypothesized) clerics. Circlets of persuasion not only help with diplomacy (what else are you going to spend your skill points on, Heal?), they give you a +3 bonus to turning checks. So, you're usually looking at something like +7 (stats, synergy, CoP) on the turn check without being super-optimized toward the roll, with 5 turns a day.

The thing is, I agree - there's other things that you can often do with turning checks. I just find DSP to be the best of what's around, especially since by level 10 or so, it's usually very difficult to turn any of the challenging monsters you really face in combat without hyper-optimizing for it due to the way HD and turn resist scale by CR, and many times you don't see ANY undead in a given adventuring day. So this gives you in one feat a pretty productive thing to do with those turn attempts.

[Sinatar]

The point I was trying to make is that the risk you take with Divine Spell Power is easily eliminated. It's not hard to get your turning check high enough to boost your CL every single time, with zero risk. Example:

3 from CHA + 3 from the feat + 2 from having 5 ranks in Knowledge Religion + 3 from Circlet of Persuasion + 2 from Glory domain = +13 turning attempt with DSP. With a roll of 9 or higher, you get the +4 to caster level. Even with a roll of 1, you get a +1 to caster level. Zero risk. And note that the example above is hardly optimized. The average level 10 cleric will have 5 ranks in Knowledge religion, and gaining the Glory domain is easy. Any cleric with levels in RSoP, Contemplative, etc. will likely have the Glory domain. Plus, there are other methods of increasing your turning check that I've missed.

But it's true that any cleric going the DMM > Persist route likely won't find DSP very useful. Also, anyone whose turning check is below +6 should never take this feat. But for someone who's only going DMM > Reach/Quicken/etc., DSP can be a very useful tool to have.

On the faith feats, I don't see a DM any more likely to forbid them than he would DMM/Persist. Seriously. The thing about faith feats are, they are great for saving your life and for ensuring your enemy doesn't resist your spells. "Ugh. I just rolled a 3 on my Reflex. I think I'll spend 3 faith points to boost that save..." *average of 10.5 added to the save*

Hmm. Maybe I should post my "Holy mage" cleric build on here... the way to heal your allies and to stop your enemies is to destroy them before they ever get the chance to act. 

EDIT: Oh yeah, Divine Retribution. Why it's nice:

1. 10 mins/level, so no need to persist it.
2. PASSIVE DAMAGE. If any foe targets you for ANYTHING, they take damage. If they attack you multiple times in a single round, they take damage EACH TIME. Regardless of their location, situation, etc.
3. Even if a foe has Evasion, they still take half since it's a Will save.
4. Even if they have Fire Resistance, they are STILL going to take some damage since it's half divine.
5. Use this with Sanctuary + summon spells and watch your DM cry.
6. For the cost of a single 5th level spell, you deal an indefinite amount of damage to your foes every time they target you, costing you ZERO ACTIONS. Just cast it while you're casting all your other buffs before delving into that cave.

[AfterCrescent]

3 from CHA + 3 from the feat + 2 from having 5 ranks in Knowledge Religion + 3 from Circlet of Persuasion + 2 from Glory domain = +13 turning attempt with DSP. With a roll of 9 or higher, you get the +4 to caster level. Even with a roll of 1, you get a +1 to caster level. Zero risk. And note that the example above is hardly optimized. The average level 10 cleric will have 5 ranks in Knowledge religion, and gaining the Glory domain is easy. Any cleric with levels in RSoP, Contemplative, etc. will likely have the Glory domain. Plus, there are other methods of increasing your turning check that I've missed.

You're right, it is hardly optimized. In fact, it's pretty crappy. You put a 16 in Cha? Or are you talking a +4 item, and combined with the Circlet, you're in the mid to high levels before this is viable?

And yes, the Glory domain is good if your focus is turning undead. If you're taking it for a feat though, that's subpar.

Yes it can be mitigated, and it's not difficult to do so, but do you really want to invest that many resources into it?

Don't get me wrong, Knowledge (Religion) is generally a must for clerics, but not essential. When you have 2 SP per level and aren't human, you take Concentration and Spellcraft over it, generally.

Now I'm not saying it's bad. Definitely not.  However if you're optimizing a turning check, I'd argue you should do better things with turning.

But it's true that any cleric going the DMM > Persist route likely won't find DSP very useful. Also, anyone whose turning check is below +6 should never take this feat. But for someone who's only going DMM > Reach/Quicken/etc., DSP can be a very useful tool to have.

I do disagree with this, however. If you're taking ANY DMM, don't take DSP. You need every turn attempt at that point. If you'll have a decent turning check and you're avoiding DMM, then yes, take DSP, it seems to be good. I will add it when I update next.

On the faith feats, I don't see a DM any more likely to forbid them than he would DMM/Persist. Seriously. The thing about faith feats are, they are great for saving your life and for ensuring your enemy doesn't resist your spells. "Ugh. I just rolled a 3 on my Reflex. I think I'll spend 3 faith points to boost that save..." *average of 10.5 added to the save*

Actually Faith feats are a variant. DMM isn't. Many DMs (from my experience) just flat out say no variants rather than banning specific things. That being said, yes, both could easily be banned. I'm not arguing that. I'm just naturally opposed to something that you have to say "DM, please may I have points back so I can use my feat?"

Hmm. Maybe I should post my "Holy mage" cleric build on here... the way to heal your allies and to stop your enemies is to destroy them before they ever get the chance to act. 

I'd be interested in that.

[AfterCrescent]

2. PASSIVE DAMAGE. If any foe targets you for ANYTHING, they take damage. If they attack you multiple times in a single round, they take damage EACH TIME. Regardless of their location, situation, etc.

Go read the spell again. It's a discharge spell.

[Sinatar]

Once the retributive effect takes place, the spell ends. ^-CC

 

I've so been misusing that spell. I've read the spell's text so many times... this is the first time I've taken note of that sentence.  Don't I feel like a [spoiler]jackass![/spoiler]

Subpar at best. *sigh* Was fun while it lasted.

[AfterCrescent]

It happens to the best of us, don't feel too bad.

[juton]

While I have to go check out Bone Knight, I was wondering what the opinions of the Knight of the Raven and Fist of Raziel prestige classes are. If all settings are available the Knight of the Raven looks better because of all the extra features you get and it doesn't require any feats as a prereqs. Fist of Raziel is good for Clerics with high charisma because they can use that with the different smites. However in a level 20 build they will only net +2 BAB, is either worth losing the caster level for?

[ninjarabbit]

Fist of Raziel is better for paladin/divine crusaders, I just don't think it's really worth it for a cleric

paladin5/pioustemplar4/divinecrusader1/FoR10

8 smites a day as a 19th level paladin, 19 BAB, 9th level spells in one domain

[AfterCrescent]

I agree with ninjarabbit.

As for Knight of the Raven, I like it. Still like Bone Knight better, but KotR is pretty good. You only lose 1 CL to get full BAB and a host of other abilities. Works extra nice if you can't pull off DMM and still want to get that +16 BAB...