Author Topic: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10  (Read 8247 times)

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Thaosyr23

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2009, 01:34:21 PM »
I actaully played a Wyrmling Steel at ECL 9. It worked out pretty well.

I believe it was loredrake Steel 4/ sorc 2/ abj champ 3.  not sure if it was battle sorc or not, LA buyoff was allowed. 1 CL down from standard sorc.

basically, I used alternate form to pretend to be "Smokey the Bugbear: Gish" and would "polymorph" into my natural form for battles.  the party didn't know until after the game died away, I was proud of that.

I was going to buy a scroll of POA to age myself into a 15 HD Steel for the stats, DM said I would get the breath weapon(4d6 instead of 1d6) but not the SR or DR.


Its pretty feasible in a standard party, you might lag a little behind in a highly optimized one though.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 02:18:48 PM »
@Thaosyr23:
How did you get rid off the LA before 9th Classlevel?
My DM quoted from UA, that Racial Hitdice didn't count for buyoff and RAW you need 6 Levels just to get from LA +2 down to LA +1, looks the same in the Hypertext SRD ???

Thaosyr23

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 02:20:57 PM »
got rid of them at 6 and 9, i started a few xp short of 9, quickly lvled up.

Ivory Knight

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 03:06:00 PM »
You are not even on Level 6, just 4 Racial Hitdice(which according to SRD don't count) + 5 Classlevels.
Therefore my question: Was it an Oversight, or a Houserule by your DM?

Edit: I tried to play a Steel Dragon before, couldn't get the LA down because of my DM enforcing said Rule.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 03:07:33 PM by Ivory Knight »

Thaosyr23

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2009, 03:25:40 PM »
hmm, never noticed that one before. It's pretty strange, might as well penalize racial HD some more, because it's not like every single one of them is inferior to a class lvl or anything.

I think we'll be ignoring that one ourselves, sorry if it doesn't help anyone.



PhaedrusXY

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2009, 03:30:03 PM »
No comment on the Zhentarim Skymage I mentioned earlier? I think that is the best possibility of getting a powerful dragon. Just play the dragon like the mage is actually bonded to him. It's not hard to believe at all, as the dragon can actually share spells with the mage as if he was its familiar. :D
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2009, 03:38:59 PM »
Aye, Zhentarim Skymage is the way to go for Ultimate Dragon Mount Power (tm) :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 04:19:46 PM »

The Problems: RP and CO don't always mix. 

hmm ... this might make Tempest come out of retirement, too  :D
And what's with PhaeXY saying shtick about yer avatar ... that's my job ?!

I was thinking Ardent 2 on any of the Dragons on Surreal's/everyone's list.
And then turn the problem upside-down.
Get a Psicrystal Hat ... easiest with Erudite 1 or more.
Same idea, just from an inside-out perspective.

Near the end of CO's glory days, the Dragon book with the Loredrake thingy,
had a battle version, of all the dragon religions. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Lot's of feats, armor, weapons, room for ToB. Psi-hat makes this even better.

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 04:49:14 PM »
Hm, so this steel drake looks promising.  I found a solid update for it on WotC site: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a
Sadly, I'm not seeing the LA on that website.  Uh, I could take Surreal's word for it and use +2 LA.  Can anyone confirm that?  Better yet, can anyone give me the LA progression?

Skymage PrC looks like it's 3.0.  So I'm not sure if that's available to me or not.

I despise kobolds.  I figured people would know that by now.  One doesn't spend years trying to kill a particularly onerous kobold, without the hatred running pretty deep.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 04:53:26 PM »
As far as Skymage goes, yes it's 3.0, but unupdated 3.0, so officially that should be legal right? YMMV ofcourse :)

May I ask what kind of flavor and personality you are thinking of for this character? The idea intrigues me :)

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Surreal

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2009, 05:32:03 PM »
The Steel dragon was updated in Dragons of Faerun (2006), which lists the wyrmling at 4HD/2LA, size S, Str 11/Dex 10/Con13/Int10/Wis11/Cha 12, speed 60'/fly 150' (ave)/swim 30', +3NA, alternate form, immune: acid, poison resistance (+10 fort saves),  SR 16.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 05:53:24 PM by Surreal »
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Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2009, 08:00:12 PM »
Ah, very good.  Much appreciated information, Surreal.

@BowenSilverclaw:

Well, the answer to that question is currently evolving, but I am converging on something coherent.  I've always wanted to play a wise and sage dragon, with all the fun little quirks of metallic dragons, but realistically that just isn't going to happen at ECL 10.  Instead, I'm settling for playing what looks like will be a dragon cohort to a wizard character.  The dynamic between the master and cohort is going to be similar to that of what one might see between a Warder and his Aes Sedai charge (if you're familiar with Wheel of Time mythology).  Here's essentially what that entails:

  • The dragon is pact bound to serve and protect the master to the death.  The pact is made such that the death of the master will drive the Warder mad.  In most cases, the madness leads to suicide, and can only be reliably cured with a Miracle.  This has a few implications: (see next 3 bullets)
  • The dragon is over-protective of his charge.  He treats the master like precious treasure.
  • The dragon defers all final decisions to the master, but acts as an adviser to the master.  Sometimes the dragon can be a bit of a pushy adviser.  The result is that much of what the pair do is a compromise between their two desires.  Depending on your experience with marriage, you might say the two act as though married.  Although the master may have a bit more of a domineering presence than one might find in your typical marriage.
  • The dragon can be a little fatalistic.  Generally, he considers death in battle to be preferential to an uncertain death in madness.  Often times the dragon is reigning in his master's follies, but in some cases the master needs to reign in the dragon from putting themselves into harm's way.  I suspect that as the master and dragon grow together and gain more experience, they'll mellow each other out.  But for now, when the pact is fresh, the pair tend towards extreme solutions.  This is usually mitigated by a converging process of compromise.  See example dialogue after this list.
  • I fully intend to capitalize on the classic humanoid vs. non-humanoid perspective shift in this pair.  It's always fun to kind of exaggerate the difference.  I suspect a wyrmling steel dragon might not be constantly aware of the mental and physical differences.  I could imagine a situation where the dragon is tasked with preparing dinner for the party and botches the job by dousing everything in vinegar because it never seemed to taste acidic enough.  An inordinate attraction to "shinies" can result in amusing situations.  Stuff like that.
Example dialogue:
  • "Master, a hundred goblins have us surrounded.  I'll rush out and engage them, to buy you time to teleport away."
  • "Don't be foolish, dragon, this illusion spell should protect the two of us from the likes of them.  We may gain some knowledge by staying in their midst.
  • "Ah, that is well and good, but I still think it wise for you to get out of here as soon as possible.  Let us use your spell to leave unnoticed as soon as possible.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2009, 08:29:40 AM »
Sounds great :)
I'll have to look into something like that for my own Wizard if you don't mind :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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Ivory Knight

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2009, 11:37:49 AM »
A bit off-topic as of now, but I looked over my Notes on playing a Dragon and a few Questions popped up.

The following 2 Options I got from the CO-Board:
[spoiler=Steel Dragon (Minimum ECL 6, uses Advancement Table for Brass Dragon from Draconomicon):]
4 Dragon HD
2 LA

- You need 6 Classlevels before you can dump 11.000 XP into reducing your LA by 1
- You need to take 1 additional Dragon HD after 2 years in Gametime, another 1 year later
- Your LA goes up by +1 after 5 years(or 2 years after your second Dragon HD)
- Your next Dragon HD brings you up one Age Category, you must take it within 1 year of uping your LA(but you want to take it ASAP anyway^^)
- You need at least 24.000 XP AND 9 Classlevels to get completly rid off your LA +2
- 2 Dragon HD, 1 LA and 3 Classlevels AFTER the LA was applied are needed, then dump 18.000 XP to buy it off

assuming optimal Stacking, by ECL 19 you need 42.000 XP to take your 7th Dragon HD, advance to Age Category Young and hit ECL 20 with:
7 Dragon HD
0 LA
13 Classlevels
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Dragonwrought Kobold(Minimum ECL 1):]
0 racial HD
0 LA

Like any other Charakter: Just take the Feat and play it as you like, till you hit 20th Level.
[/spoiler]

And here's what I came up with myself:
[spoiler=Halfdragon]
any Race without LA or Racial HD, using Draconic Racial Class Varaint(Minimum ECL 1):
0 racial HD
0 LA

- After your 1st Classlevel, you must take 2nd Level as LA +1, gaining the Draconic Template
- 3 Classlevels later, you can dump 4.000 XP to buy it off
- Now you take 2 additional Levels of LA, to get yourself the Half Dragon Template
- 6 Classlevels later, you burn 11.000 XP, to reduce your LA by 1
- 3 Classlevels thereafter you can drop the last LA by paying 13.000 XP

by ECL 19 you should need 18.000 XP, to get your 20th Classlevel and hit ECL 20 with:
0 racial HD
0 LA
20 Classlevels
[/spoiler]

Now my Questions:
[spoiler=About the Half Dragon Variant:]
- Would you qualify to take one of the Sovereign Archetypes from Dragons of Eberron and
   could you apply it to your Sorcerercasting gained from Classlevels?

- Your first Level would have to be either Standardclass, Paragon or Sublevel of your Base Race?

- You could take the Racial Sublevels and Feats for Draconic Creatures, only AFTER gaining the Template,
   so I can't gain Feats, that are "1st Level only"?

- Half Dragon Paragon, Classes or Feats for (Half-)Dragons only after ECL 6?

Of course, I thought about using Half Dragon from the Start.
But that would force my to play with LA +3 until ECL 12(9 Classlevels)
AND
spend 45.000 XP to get rid of the last LA when I hit ECL 19(18 Classlevels).

Related Ideas, I came up with:

- Can the Half Dragon Template, or the Racial Class Variant be added to a Kobold and how do they interact with Dragonwrought?

- Would a Half Dragon Goliath Barbarian(Racial Sublevel) gain Wings, while raging?

- If I apply any Half (Fire)Dragon Variant to a Frostfolk(Frostburn) Charakter, he would keep all the Benefits of being a Frostfolk,
   gain the Benefits of being a Half Dragon and also get rid of his Vulnarability to Fire?

Long Post so far, but if you're still reading: Is any of my Half Dragon Ideas optimizable and if so: What's it good for?

My Thoughts:
The Goliath(or any other "Low to No LA"-Race) would make for a nice Gish and make sure you slap on some BFC via (Meta)Breath-Feats.

For the Frostfolk, I lean more to Melee(Probably Warblade?), with a dash
of Skillmonkey(7x6+Int from Racial HD alone + Int-Boost from Halfdragon).
[/spoiler]

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2009, 03:50:57 PM »
Thanks for the info on racial HD advancement Ivory Knight... that changes some of my character development.  Hmm...

awaken DM golem

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2009, 07:58:58 PM »
heh ... TG's gameology-fu is up to (drumroll, please) ... THREE ?!  :twitch

Ivory Knight "Sovereign Archetypes" ; bingo, I forgot that.
It would work, but just with Dragon Racial Class levels.
Any regular Class levels, and on the side (if you know what I mean).

Tleilaxu_Ghola

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2009, 02:14:20 AM »
Mkay, well, I'm not completely satisfied yet, but here's what I got.  So long as you don't bat an eye at getting 5 levels in a year and a half (which really isn't impossible in my campaigning experience).

Lore Drake Steel Dragon 4 HD + 2 LA/ Warblade 1/ Abjurant Champion 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage 3 
[ECL 11, because this ended up being a draconic cohort to a ECL 10 wizard]

Feats:
  • Intimidating Strike
    • Flaw: Multiattack
    • Flaw: Combat Casting
  • Fell Frighten
  • Ironheart Aura
  • Storm Guard Warrior

It's got a couple interesting tricks, apart from standard gishery:

1. Wraithstrike + Intimidating Strike + Fell Frighten Magic Missile: Add BAB to my maxed intimidate skill.  He's got good Cha and we can pick up a couple items to add to the effect.  Anyways, it's something like [9 BAB + 12 ranks + 4 Cha + 3 competence (circlet of persuasion) +2 circumstance (mwk tool)*] = 30.  That's opposed by [1d20 + HD + Wis +saves vs fear bonus].  Next round (or maybe the first round), you drop magic missiles for a no-save shaken effect, putting them at frightened.  Following round follow up with another fear effect.  Then go to town.
* Get creative here.  I mean he's a dragon.  It could just be a sign on his head that says, "Yo, I'm a dragon, bitch."

> Also, his wizard master can use Adoration of the Frightened (Dragon Magic) to essentially turn the pair into the diplomancer (if shaken or greater, and they fail their save within 60' of the wizard, they become friendly).
 
2. Stormguard warrior... I'm not sure I need to spell this out for you guys.  But if you need a refresher, he'll "waste" a round playing touchy with his opponent, then follow up with flashing sun + multiattack.  Wraith strike if necessary.  +15 damage on 4 attacks is gonna hurt pretty bad.





Why I'm not very happy with it:

1. I'd like the intimidate check to be higher.  Any ideas?
2. This guy's supposed to be a body guard.  I figured the best way to make sure that people stay off his charge was to use fear effects; AoOs are nice but they don't help against casters and it's very feat intensive.  That said, against mindless things, things with a lot of HD, things with anti-fear save effects, and fear immunity are all going to rip right through this defense.  Would be nice if I could come up with another trick to keeping people off the Wizard.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2009, 03:53:57 AM »
What about the Ability Focus feat? That's a +2. Skill Focus (Intimidate) on an item, for +3. Also, Aid Another for another +2. A boost to his Cha score. For (at this level) another +2 (assuming it's not already bumped). Maybe a creative use of the Disguise skill (sharpened fangs? red glowing eyes of hate? a Micheal Jackson makeover?) for another +2 circumstance bonus. A psicrystal or familiar for another +3 (and it can do the Aid Anothering for you, too).

Also, heh, have the dragon ride the wizard as a mount, and take the Mounted Combat feat (though if you had a psicrystal/familiar, it could ride on his hat)? :P Have him ride *you* and keep him tactically aloft, and away from harm. Make strategic use of concealment and cover. Also, share buffs with him; miss chances are your *friends*. If you have access to psionic items, greater concealing amorpha will make either of you pretty much immune to anything that requires a target (which is a helluvalotta stuff).
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2009, 04:44:06 AM »
If you can wing them, dredge through dragon for either the unseelie fey (drag comp) or magic blooded (drag 306) LA +0 templates.  Unseelie gives, IIRC, a racial +4 to intimidate, + cha, and misc benefits, magic blooded gives +cha and misc benefits.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Feasibility Consultation: Playing a Dragon at ECL 10
« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2009, 07:43:18 AM »
Item Familiar to effectively double your ranks in Intimidate?
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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