Author Topic: thinking inside the box of force that is  (Read 3509 times)

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archangel.arcanis

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thinking inside the box of force that is
« on: April 05, 2009, 09:39:19 PM »
Let me preface this by saying that when the rules don't even come close to addressing something we use real world physics to help determine what would happen. Water is its most dense when in its liquid form, extra fact we looked up for relevance here. pressure causes an increase in temperature as well.

One of my players asks me if they can purchase 2 scrolls of permanency, i let them since they would be available where they are.  He then later asks about getting some graphite. I get suspicions and ask him what he is trying to do. so he lays out his plan.

1. cast force chest (spc 97)
2. use scroll to permanence it. i decided i would let this work since it isn't explicitly on the list.
3. fill chest with water.
4. cast shrink item on the water itself
5. permanence the shrink item, explicitly stated it can be shrunk and expanded at caster command.
6 add more water to chest, as well as some of the graphite.
7. close chest and let shrunk water expand. :D
8. let the intense pressure build up and cause heat eventually turning the graphite into a diamond. :clap

this was just too creative so i had to let it happen. i just can't let pure carbon be too readily available in my game now.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 11:09:15 PM »
How is he giving the command word through the Force Chest? Doesn't he need Line of Effect? Or at least a way for his voice to be heard inside the chest? If it is so water tight that it can create diamonds then it is almost certainly sound proof, too, I'd think.

Anyway, even if it worked, I think it would wind up forming some kind of plasma, with all of the atoms ionized, including the carbon. I doubt you'd get diamond. And how the hell does someone in a D&D world (alchemy is real, and the gods really do smite people) even come up with this crap, anyway? Who says diamonds are even formed from graphite in D&D? Maybe they're the tears of the dragon god, or some such shite.

I don't think things like this are particularly clever. I think they're annoying, as they're dragging real world physics and heinous metagaming into a fantasy game.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:51:40 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ZeroSpace

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 11:10:30 PM »
May or may not be worth the money spent, but if you really need that diamond dust...

Agreed though, I would allow that. It's kinda dodgy, rule-wise, but I like the lateral thinking.
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Surreal

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2009, 12:26:25 AM »
Were I the DM, I would say they'd all be killed from the explosion when they opened the box.
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woodenbandman

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2009, 12:35:58 AM »
Were I the DM, i'd say that the only way you can create a diamond is with a Wish spell.

CannibalSmith

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 02:17:53 AM »
Were I the DM, I'd say there's no such thing as carbon.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 02:35:29 AM »
Were I the DM, I would point out the price for a scroll of True Creation...


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Rymosrac

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2009, 02:56:04 AM »
Were I the DM, someone else in the campaign would have thought of it already, completely devaluing diamonds.

Alternately:

Were I the DM, the diamond would come out shaped like male genitalia.
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Surreal

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2009, 03:46:48 AM »
So really, the force chest is just to protect the family jewels then.

 :sorry
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2009, 04:00:38 AM »
Lets see... under that heat and pressure...

I believe your PC just created a bunch of hydrocarbons.  Congratulate them on their petroleum creation process.
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Akalsaris

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2009, 04:18:22 AM »
Were I the DM,

This would happen...once.

Sidenote: It pretty much already did, except that it involved wishing for incrementally larger diamonds until a player "got a diamond larger than his head."  Not his character hauls it around, unable to find a country in the world that can afford it or believes him when he says it's real.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2009, 12:14:43 PM »
Were I the DM, I would not allow permanency to work on Force Chest since its not on the list  :lol
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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[/Spoiler]

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Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
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It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2009, 01:00:58 PM »
psst i knew it wasn't on the list.  I made a call on that since it was printed later and none of the spells i've seen outside the PHB have amended the list by stating they can be perminanced.

besides its all in good fun and i wanted to reward a player for actually thinking outside " i hit it, then i hit it again"

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2009, 01:35:08 PM »
Oh, yeah I knew.

I was just saying I wouldn't have. Because even though I allow crazy interpretations (half of why I love these boards), I'm still a hard-ass DM  :smirk
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Rhig

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2009, 08:49:24 PM »
Were I the DM, I would point out that unless the character somehow came up with every single development of physics, chemistry and biology that occured in the real world from the middle ages all the way up to the late 19th century, there is no foreseeable reason for it to do this thing. I would let him have the diamond, but most likely I would also incur an XP penalty for severe lack of ability to roleplay. It's not in the rules, but if you can give a player an XP boost for roleplaying, you can damn well take some of his XP when he deliberately refuses to roleplay and performs an act of pure metagaming for the sake of increasing his character's power.
Also, I'm pretty sure there's a clause in Shrink Item that says that if there's not enough room for the shrinked item to expand, it only expands to the largest size that can fit into the place where it is located. Now, the wording might be a bit tricky on the subject, but I imagine that RAI, they didn't mean the item can grow as much as the place can withstand, otherwise Enlarge Person and the likes would have much deadlier applications than buffing your BSF.

Endarire

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2009, 09:37:39 PM »
Rhig: I see nothing supporting your argument in the rules.

Were I the DM, I'd want him to explain how this thing would work in reality and how his character would have knowledge of it.
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veekie

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2009, 02:00:19 AM »
Lets see... under that heat and pressure...

I believe your PC just created a bunch of hydrocarbons.  Congratulate them on their petroleum creation process.
I'd go with this one, he needs a better way of compressing carbon!
xH2O + yC !
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Rhig

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2009, 06:53:24 AM »
Rhig: I see nothing supporting your argument in the rules.

I guess I got mixed up between Shrink Item and Enlarge Person. Anyway, that wasn't my actual argument, it was more of a ponder upon the legality of doing this RAW.

Amadi

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2009, 02:12:02 PM »
Meh, probably works. Then again, because according to theory of relativity, objects become smaller the faster they move, and because "create water" creates a certain volume of water, you could just say that the water you summon is moving at, over 9000 times the speed of light, and therefore you get something like few black holes worth of water when casting the spell.

D&D doesn't work with physics, really.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: thinking inside the box of force that is
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2009, 02:40:13 PM »
Create water specifies mass as well as volume.
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