Author Topic: touch spell specialist?  (Read 5977 times)

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shadowlancer

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touch spell specialist?
« on: March 31, 2009, 06:31:07 PM »
Greetings, fellow COpters! My group is starting preparations for a new campaign, and I am in need of some direction regarding my character.

First, the essential campaign information.

[spoiler]
Allowed books: Core + Completes+PHBII, ToB, and Sandstorm, and a 3rd party book called Beyond Monks. Also the Dragon Compendium. That's it, though. The GM won't approve stuff outside of these. He wants to keep the ruleset down to what he knows best due to limited time.

High magic. Starting at level 3. UA Vitalizing Spellpoint variants are in use, so Con is even more important. Also, Conjuration(Summoning) spells don't exist. Summons are unique and must be quested for. Classes too, actually. Any PrC listed I plan on questing for if I can, but that means that the build must be able to stand on its own without it if need be. Any PrC must be taken in its entirety before beginning a new one. Oh, and the GM doesn't like dual-progression classes like Mystic Theurge or Enlightened Fist, and hates dual-progression feats (Ascetic Mage, Daring Outlaw, Swift Hunter, etc.) Multiclassing is difficult: if we start with a multiclassed character, we advance the age category by one. Each time we take a new base class in-game, we need a year of downtime to train.

The setting is a land-heavy world with bodies of water scattered about. The GM pretty much just took a topographical map of Venus and added water. Dragons rule the world as overlords, but largely leave the lesser races to themselves as long as they don't get in the dragons' way. That means, though, that no dragon-centric stuff is available to players: no feats, classes, gear, or spells.
[/spoiler]

Character concept is a soft/internal-style martial artist who attacks with melee touch attacks. Something along the lines of Tai Chi or Dim Mak, or a focus on touch spells. The idea is to debuff/BC, and maybe damage as a secondary concern. Ideally, I'd like to be a gnome, but it's not set in stone. We're restricted to PHB races, though, with the exception that core elves have been replaced by grey elves.

So what I need help with is narrowing down which classes to use. Since I'm focusing on melee, survivability is an issue. BAB isn't a huge concern, since the focus is touch attacks, but it is more important than, say, for a BC wizard. Since most of the interesting touch effects in the game are spells, casting is important (unless there are monk/rogue feats for that kind of thing).

Some potential builds (not exhaustive):
[spoiler]
Martial Artist5/Tanterist10/???:
Martial Artist is a base class from Beyond Monks (explicitly approved by the GM). It's a mix between fighter and monk, with a barbarian-esque surge ability and sneak attack-like finishing move. It's actually very balanced, and flexible enough for my purposes. The Tanterist is a PrC from the same book that specifically deals with Dim Mak-like effects, but it's kind of weak.

Spellthief6/Osteomancer10/???:
Osteomancer is from Dragon Magazine Compendium. 1/2 spell progression, 3/4 BAB, and gets interesting bone-based abilities (like bone spikes). Spellthief looks interesting as a start, since I like playing rogue-types. May throw in Abjurant Champion for CL tricks later in the build.

Duskblade/???:
An Unarmed Strike Duskblade could work out rather nicely, but I'm starting to get tired of playing Duskblades all the time. It's a definite possibility, though.

Warmage5/Sandshaper10/???:
I know, Warmage is weak, but it's also a good excuse to go Sandshaper all the way. Fits the concept less closely than the others, but still doable. Sandshaper fits the world nicely too.

Combat Sorceror/Spellwarp Sniper5/???:
Another possibility, in the same vein as the warmage/sandshaper above. Not a close fit to the concept, but it has flexibilityand spellcasting power. With one of those combat variants and the Metamagic Specialist ACF from PHBII, it's at least solid.
[/spoiler]

Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 04:34:58 PM by shadowlancer »
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

woodenbandman

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 06:48:29 PM »
The feat Stormguard Warrior from Tome of Battle is useful. It allows you to make touch attacks rather than regular melee attacks, and for each touch attack you hit with, you deal +5 damage per attack on your next attack action. A two-weapon-wielding Warblade would fit this perfectly.

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 07:07:27 PM »
Great, except the book isn't on the allowed list. Thanks, though.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

woodenbandman

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 07:21:38 PM »
I noted the list, but you did say you could try and convince the DM. ;)

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2009, 07:43:54 PM »
Not for that book. He hates it.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

Rebel7284

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2009, 08:04:40 PM »
Not for that book. He hates it.

What's with all the hate for that book?  Seems like it would make combat more fun. 

Anyway, you're trying to make a monk like character that casts spells in a game where dual progression classes are looked down on?  :eh

The simplest answer is just play a normal wizard and focus on touch spells, you can always polymorph/alter self/greater mirror image to improve your combat ability.  You can even pump your wisdom to 14 or so and take monk's belt to help the image.

I personally like Unseen Seer a lot for fighting casters, Human Spellthief or Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer X works very well.

Another option you have is to take the Kensai class and make your unarmed strike a spell storing weapon.  It's not very optimized but is probably closest to the flavor you're looking for.

Regardless, remember the spell Shivering Touch from frostburn.
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Tshern

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2009, 08:22:11 PM »
If he really wants to play the character, I'd actually forget Shivering touch very quickly.

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shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2009, 08:23:52 PM »
Not for that book. He hates it.

What's with all the hate for that book?  Seems like it would make combat more fun. 
Yeah, but he's trying to keep things simple and avoid power creep. I can understand his reasons, even if I don't agree with them myself.


Anyway, you're trying to make a monk like character that casts spells in a game where dual progression classes are looked down on?  :eh
Doesn't need to be dual-progression. Just needs to be able to take some punishment, and either cast some low-level touch spells effectively or use feats which grant effect attacks (ie. rogue's Crippling Strike).

The simplest answer is just play a normal wizard and focus on touch spells, you can always polymorph/alter self/greater mirror image to improve your combat ability.  You can even pump your wisdom to 14 or so and take monk's belt to help the image.
It's a thought. Wizards are kinda squishy at level 3, though.

I personally like Unseen Seer a lot for fighting casters, Human Spellthief or Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer X works very well.
Yeah, I'm in complete agreement over Unseen Seer. My current character is a Rogue5/Assassin1/US10, and is made of win and awesome. :)

Another option you have is to take the Kensai class and make your unarmed strike a spell storing weapon.  It's not very optimized but is probably closest to the flavor you're looking for.
Hmm. That might work with a Martial Artist-based build... I'll have to play with that a bit. Good idea!

Regardless, remember the spell Shivering Touch from frostburn.
Nobody in my group can forget it. I've been banned from ever using it again due to abusing it in my foolish youth :P But that's what Enervation and such are for.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

InnaBinder

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2009, 11:01:54 PM »
Are you dead set against a Cleric type?  Slightly better BAB and HP, with some pretty tasty touch spells if you pick your domains right, and WIS synergy with some of the Unarmed Strike feats.
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mans0011

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 12:01:24 AM »
Druid 20 could be good for you. I know it's a lame-ass suggestion, but it's so delicious. If you can convince your DM to let you do Incantatrix, that's a great PrC for doing touch attacks (persisted Wraithstrike, anyone?) Just some thoughts.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2009, 03:36:53 AM »
CoDzilla could work great, actually, except that spells are pretty much PHB only unless I get a specific spell approved. There aren't a whole lot of good touch spells for either cleric or druid in core-only. The GM has explicitly banned Spell Compendium, so that leaves the Complete versions to work with.

The GM mentioned that he wouldn't be allowing Eberron or FR material, so Incantatrix is out.

I've contacted the GM for more specific information on what material is allowed. More when he replies.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

Akalsaris

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2009, 04:02:42 AM »
No offense, but I think this concept is going to be difficult to implement with the DM you have.  I've had similar experiences with very restrictive DMs, and it can be pretty frustrating sometimes.  Thankfully, mine are all starting to come slowly around to CO :D

Out of the builds you posted, I think the combat sorcerer is probably pretty close to what you're looking for though.  Even though sorcerers aren't optimized, but that just means your character is less likely to get nerfed into the ground.  You can also stack on stalwart sorcerer if you want even more combat focus at the cost of spell versatility.

Good luck :)

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2009, 07:11:41 AM »
That difficulty is half the fun. :D The GM's only restrictive because A) he's one of the best optimizers in the group, and B) a large chunk of the group aren't interested in optimizing. It's less that he's prone to nerfing things, and more that he doesn't want to deal with that much complexity for this campaign. For the current one, it's anything goes and he's even got us playing two parties against each other.

Anyway, I just found out that Complete Scoundrel is on the banned list, except for a few things he explicitly allowed (like Spellwarp Sniper).
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2009, 05:34:10 PM »
I've identified three different touch effect types that exist. In order of number of viable options:
  • Touch spells
  • Sneak Attack/Ambush feats
  • Stunning Fist feats
Since the only worthwhile Stunning Fist feat for these purposes is Freezing the Lifeblood, which requires BAB +10, we can disregard this category. Sneak Attack/Ambush feats include things like Arterial Strike (CW), Disabling Strike (CS), and the whisper gnome's Silencing Strike (RoS). These are viable, but not until at least SA +3d6, so 5th-6th level for a vanilla rogue. That leaves touch spells, which are viable from cantrips. (Note that, since the Vitalizing Spell Points variant is in use, Touch of Fatigue becomes much more useful.) That said, if I focus on SA, I can pick up the Mage Slayer feats and really subvert the magic-heavy setting.

How viable is it, given the above restrictions, to get decent SA and viable touch spells from level 3? All I can think of is Spellthief, but that doesn't get SA +3d6 until 9th.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 04:40:52 PM by shadowlancer »
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

Rebel7284

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2009, 06:57:28 PM »
Whisper Gnome
1 Rogue
2 Monk
3 Wizard
4 Barbarian (Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy)
5 Rogue
6 Unseen Seer
7 Unseen Seer
8 Unseen Seer
9 Kensai
10 Kensai
11 Unseen Seer
12 Abjurant Champion
13 Abjurant Champion
14 Abjurant Champion
15 Abjurant Champion
16 Abjurant Champion
... has ALL the abilities that you want but is kinda a late bloomer and requires an alignment change.

Edit: the most effective power-wise probably IS a duskblade.

Duskblade 5/Kensai 2/Abjurant Champion 5.  Skills not verified.

Edit 2: Perhaps a fast progression class such as suel anamrach(sp?) can be added instead of wizard
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 07:09:52 PM by Rebel7284 »
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mans0011

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2009, 10:00:11 PM »
I don't know how much you need touch spells as CoDzilla. Druids seem like your best bet. Self-sufficient and great battle machines.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

Gr1lledcheese

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 12:17:19 AM »
<QR>

Doesn't Duskblade fit the touch spell bill in a pretty descent way?

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2009, 01:42:07 AM »
Yeah, Duskblade seems like the best bet for touch spells. The thing is, I always end up playing those, so I want to see if there's another way to do it. So far I like the Martial Artist with Ambush feats (CS, CW, CAdv) and the Mage Slayer tree. Beyond Monks has some good Stunning Fist feats, too. But the best build I could come up with doesn't really get going until level 6:
[spoiler]
key: ms = Martial Secret class feature; b = class bonus feat; BM = Beyond Monks
Gnome
Martial Artist (full BAB, d10HD, AC bonus)
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Mage Slayer (CArc)
3ms: Cheetah Speed (BM, +10 base speed)
5b: Fancy Footwork (BM, 5ft step both before and after attack)
6: Arterial Strike (CW, SA stacking wounding)
7ms: Stunning Fist
9: Staggering Strike (CAdv, SA reduces target to single action for 1 round)
9b: Stunning Focus (BM, +2 stun DC)
11ms: Tiger Spirit (BM, +3 stun uses)
12: Freezing the Lifeblood (CW, stun for 1d4+1 rounds)
13b: Focus Ki (BM, unarmed strike counts as +3 vs DR)
15: Pierce Magical Protection (CArc)
15ms: Crippling Strike (SA does 1 Str damage)
17b: Strike Through (BM, negate armor, shield, and natural armor)
18: Eldritch Erosion (CS, SA damages SR)
19ms: Tiger Spirit (BM, +3 stun uses, stacks)
[/spoiler]

Working on a Duskblade build to compare. I'll post it when it's done.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

shadowlancer

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2009, 03:50:17 PM »
Here's the Duskblade build:
[spoiler]
Gnome
Duskblade (wield spiked armor/gauntlets)
1: Weapon Finesse
2: Combat Casting (class bonus)
3: Improved Init
6: Mobile Spellcasting
9: Arcane Strike
12: Death Blow
at 14, start Abjurant Champion
15: Spell Penetration
18: ???
[/spoiler]
I talked to the GM, and he mentioned that, with the UA options used, metamagic doesn't increase casting time for spontaneous casters. Given that, what metamagic, if any, would work well with this?
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." --ESR (This applies to RPG systems too.)

Rebel7284

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Re: touch spell specialist?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2009, 04:37:24 PM »
Is mobile spellcasting worth it that early?  I mean yeah it gives you spring attack but at level 6 your CON is like 20 so 9 ranks +5 Con + spell level means you still fail to cast a level 1 spell if you roll < 5. 

For metamagic, extend spell is a classic although I don't remember off hand how many Duskblade spells are extendible.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286