Author Topic: Comments on a Diviner build?  (Read 4277 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Comments on a Diviner build?
« on: March 26, 2009, 08:53:55 AM »
Goals:

Hello all - I'm in the process of making a divination - themed build. 
- 1st goal is to make it very good at divination,
- 2nd goal is to make it effective in general,
- 3rd goal is to make it as close to DM neutral as possible. 
In this order of importance.

Build:

Classes, listed in the order I take them, with options and pre-reqs (note: I haven't yet looked at skill pre-reqs):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard 5 - Spontaneous Divination - Domain Specialist - Divination (Future)
Incantatrix 4 (Req: Iron Will, 1 metamagic, 3rd level spells)
Steel Legionnaire 1 (Req: Fort, Reflex, Will +2, Bab +4, level 6)
Legion Sorcerer 2 (Req: Will +6, spell focus(divination))
Divine Oracle 3 (Req: Skill Focus: Knowledge - Religion)
Incantatrix 5-7
Mindbender 1
Loremaster 1 (Req: Skill Focus: Knowledge, 3 metamagic or item creation)

Feat Progression:
Trait: Spellgifted (Divination)
 1 - Spell Mastery - [Human Bonus] - retrain every couple of levels for better spell selection
 1 - Apprentice Spellcaster - [Level]
 3 - Uncanny Foresight - [Level]
 6 - Iron Will - [Magical Location: Otyugh Hole]
 6 - Extend Spell +1 - [Level]
 6 - Persistent Spell +6 - [Incantatrix: Level 1]
 9 - Spell Focus (Divination) - [Level]
 9 - Echoing Spell +3 - [Incantatrix: Level 4]
12 - Circle Magic - [Level] - (from Ghostwalk)
13 - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) - [Magical Location: The Frog God's Fane]
15 - Craft Contingent Spell - [Level]
18 - Insightful Divination - [Level]
18 - Delay Spell +3 - [Incantatrix: Level 7]
20 - Mindsight - [Loremaster: Secret]

Abilities/Thoughts of Note

- CL 19, +3 divination, additional +1 domain spells, -1 other spells
- Apprentice Spellcaster -> Circle Magic -> Echoing Spell
- Spell Mastery -> Uncanny Foresight
- Spontaneous Divination
- Share Divination - ability from Legion Sorcerer which allows you to share divination spells with all in 30'
- Uses Spell Research Generously for new Divination Spells
- Icantatrix Goodness (Notice that bonus feat choice fits reasonably well with Divination Theme)
- Canny Spellcraft - ability from Legion Sorcerer - adds Spellcasting Attribute vs. SR and saves vs. Spells / SLA
- Telepathy / Mindsight

Divination(Future) Domain Wizard:

1 Guidance
2 Augury
3 Know Opponent
4 Divination
5 Surge of Fortune
6 Eyes of the Oracle
7 Vision
8 Moment of Prescience
9 Foresight

Questions:

1 - Any thoughts on the order of classes so that I get powerful abilities and divination abilities as early as possible?
2 - An extra feat to get a Beguiler as a familiar would be very nice ... ideas?
3 - Any other advice in general?

Note:

Steel Legionnaire is from the DragonLance Campaign Setting.  This class doesn't really give anything of value, but it's level 1 ability (something like bardic knowledge), is a pre-req for Legion Sorcerer.  Also,it costs a CL.  *ouch*

Legion Sorcerer is from Dragonlance - Age of Mortals.  Let's you share divination spells with those in 30' at 1st level, and add Casting Att. bonus to punch through SR at 2nd.  Other cool abilities too.  Nice class - and great for my diviner-themed build.

Best,
David
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 06:25:45 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

bitznarf

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 03:45:16 PM »
Divine Oracle looks like it would fit your theme very nicely.  Does cost a feat, but it also gives you several benefits.  From a strict optimization viewpoint I don't think it's worth it, but it does fit your theme.

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 08:03:42 PM »
I don't think there is anything more optimized than Incantatrix 10. In fact, I would suggest you get Incantatrix 3 before moving on with the build. Being able to extend or persist for free with a simple spellcraft check is amazing. Delicious, even.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 03:56:46 AM »
Mans, I know that Incantatrix 10 is hard to beat.  But as Bitznarf observes, I'm going for optimized *divination* powers, _not_ optimized magical prowess.  That said, you are definitely right, it is worth moving Icantatrix 3 up one! 

Biznarf - I'd *love* to take Divine Oracle 3 - that would get both divination Augury, allowing me to (mostly) take a divination specialist instead of domain specialist wizard.  However, I'd still need to somehow grab Surge of Fortune.  In addition, I'd lose:
- 1 feat to qualify for Divine Oracle
- 1 bonus metamagic feat from Incantatrix
- -1 cost to metamagic from incantatrix 10

I'd gain:
- Evasion in Armor
- Re-roll divination spells!
- Oracle Domain (which is quite nice, but alas, doesn't have Surge of Fortune!)

Hmm ... I guess I do think it's worth it for the build.

Thanks both!
David
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 04:04:19 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 01:22:41 PM »
Divine Oracle looks like it would fit your theme very nicely.  Does cost a feat, but it also gives you several benefits.  From a strict optimization viewpoint I don't think it's worth it, but it does fit your theme.
Can be acquired from a magical location. The feat, that is, not the class.

Also, why enter Incantatrix at level seven when you can do it at level six?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 01:24:12 PM by Tshern »

Handy Links

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 01:27:09 PM »
If you don't mind me asking, where are Steel Legionaire and Legion Sorcerer from?
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 10:30:22 PM »
If Incantatrix is available to you, you really cannot make an argument against entering it a) as soon as possible and b)taking to to 10. I don't care what your flavor is, unless you are going for spells that just don't care about metamagic. But even STILL! Being able to extend spells for free is so worth the 10 level investment. Unless you're just bored with playing Incantatrix characters, you cannot argue against its power and versatility.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

Straw_Man

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1145
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2009, 03:50:26 AM »
If Incantatrix is available to you, you really cannot make an argument against entering it a) as soon as possible and b)taking to to 10. I don't care what your flavor is, unless you are going for spells that just don't care about metamagic. But even STILL! Being able to extend spells for free is so worth the 10 level investment. Unless you're just bored with playing Incantatrix characters, you cannot argue against its power and versatility.

  Umm, if his flavour is Diviner, he doesn't need all the metamagics for a lot of Div. spells. There will be exceptions, but I don't think they will be worldshaking one's. So as a Diviner casting primarily Div. spells, yes, you can make an argument against it. You can indeed Min/Max flavour, which is the few reasons not to do Incantrix's, Shadowcrafters, Seven Veilers and other very powerful PrC's.
"No, no, don't think, Maya." Ritsuko chided. "We will not gattai the Evas or their pilots.

Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2009, 04:28:17 AM »
If Incantatrix is available to you, you really cannot make an argument against entering it a) as soon as possible and b)taking to to 10. I don't care what your flavor is, unless you are going for spells that just don't care about metamagic. But even STILL! Being able to extend spells for free is so worth the 10 level investment. Unless you're just bored with playing Incantatrix characters, you cannot argue against its power and versatility.

  Umm, if his flavour is Diviner, he doesn't need all the metamagics for a lot of Div. spells. There will be exceptions, but I don't think they will be worldshaking one's. So as a Diviner casting primarily Div. spells, yes, you can make an argument against it. You can indeed Min/Max flavour, which is the few reasons not to do Incantrix's, Shadowcrafters, Seven Veilers and other very powerful PrC's.

Even Focused Diviners need to cast transmutations and conjurations. Both of those schools make delicious use of metamagic feats. Incantatrix also requires so little investment for the best possible return from an arcane class. It snuggles quite easily into almost any build that has room for 10 pre-epic levels. Shadowcraft mages and Initiates of the Seven-fold Veil have so much baggage, either mechanics (Initiate) or flavor (SCM) that you cannot really take them with any Wizard. Initiate is strong, but Incantatrix is superior.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2009, 05:58:15 PM »
Also, why enter Incantatrix at level seven when you can do it at level six?

Because Steel Legionnaire requires Fort, Reflex, Will +2, BaB +4. 

But you are right - updated progression:
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Wizard 1/Steel Legionnaire 1/Legion Sorcerer 3/Incantatrix 4-10

Quote from: BowenSilverclaw
If you don't mind me asking, where are Steel Legionnaire and Legion Sorcerer from?

I don't mind at all - they are definitely both very obscure.  Steel Legionnaire is from the DragonLance Campaign Setting.  This class doesn't really give anything of value, but it's level 1 ability (something like bardic knowledge), is a pre-req for Legion Sorcerer.  Also,it costs a CL.  *ouch*

Legion Sorcerer is from Dragonlance - Age of Mortals.  Let's you share divination spells with those in 30' at 1st level, and add Casting Att. bonus to punch through SR at 2nd.  Other cool abilities too.  Nice class - and great for my diviner-themed build.

Quote from: discussion between mans0011 and StrawMan
stuff

I have to agree with StrawMan's position.  Also, the question isn't "should I take Incantatrix".  The question is "should I take the last 3 levels of Incantatrix".

While the reduction in metamagic cost is great, at that point you already can persist things for free, etc

While the last 3 levels are clearly more powerful from Incantatrix, I don't think they make him a more powerful diviner, and they are only slightly more powerful in general. 

However, being able to re-roll on divination spells is almost as good as getting 2-for-1 on bread and butter spells.

An example:

Casts Echoing Divination spell w/ Circle Magic.  CL ~ 40.  This divination spell can be cast 9 times from this one 7th level spell slot!

Each of these castings can be shared with all party members in a 30' radius

Each of these castings get's the better of 2 rolls.  (If with divine oracle)

And you can do this spontaneously!

You're whole party can know a _whole lot_ from that 1 7th level slot.  Similarly with Surge of Fortune, etc.

Best,
David
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 06:12:29 PM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2009, 07:40:18 PM »
Metamagic effect does not allow you to quicken spells for free, for example. It only allows you to add metamagic to already in effect spells. You are grossly undervaluing the ability to quicken for free with instant metamagic. But whatever. It's your character, I'm just telling you how you can make it stronger.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2009, 07:52:31 PM »
Metamagic effect does not allow you to quicken spells for free, for example. It only allows you to add metamagic to already in effect spells. You are grossly undervaluing the ability to quicken for free with instant metamagic. But whatever. It's your character, I'm just telling you how you can make it stronger.

You are right - except that I don't have quicken as a feat ...
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2009, 08:15:13 PM »
Lucky for you, Incantatrix gets four bonus metamagic feats across 10 levels. Any full caster should have quicken spell....
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2009, 06:28:12 AM »
Divine Oracle looks like it would fit your theme very nicely.  Does cost a feat, but it also gives you several benefits.  From a strict optimization viewpoint I don't think it's worth it, but it does fit your theme.
Can be acquired from a magical location. The feat, that is, not the class.

Also, why enter Incantatrix at level seven when you can do it at level six?

I have updated the build at the top.

Also, where would you get the Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) feat from?  You implied you can get it from a magical location?

Thanks,
David

P.S.  I did end up adding Divine Oracle 3 - the difference between 1 roll and 2 rolls is the difference between being right 90% of the time and being right 99% of the time.  Huge - especially when you realize that we're talking about 5-10+ castings of Augury/Divination/Contact other Plane each day.
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2009, 08:53:25 PM »
sike.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

Rhig

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2009, 10:17:07 PM »
Might I suggest a single level dip of Visionary Seeker, a PrC from Planar Handbook? All you need are 8 ranks in Knowledge (anything you very well feel like), and you're in. What you get is a +1 CL bonus on divination spells.

mans0011

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
  • Too much Aizen Hate to go around....
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2009, 02:39:11 AM »
For that matter, if you get traits, take Spellgifted (Divination) for +1 caster level to divinations and -1 to all others.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

DavidWL

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 505
    • Email
Re: Comments on a Diviner build?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2009, 06:18:28 AM »
Might I suggest a single level dip of Visionary Seeker, a PrC from Planar Handbook? All you need are 8 ranks in Knowledge (anything you very well feel like), and you're in. What you get is a +1 CL bonus on divination spells.

Rhig - I actually did think about Visionary Seeker, but I couldn't figure out how to fit it in.  What class levels do you think I should drop?

For that matter, if you get traits, take Spellgifted (Divination) for +1 caster level to divinations and -1 to all others.

Right now this isn't intended for any specific game - I'm just trying to keep it "reasonable".  I like your recommendation - it is flavorful, and useful!

Thank you!

Best,
David
« Last Edit: April 17, 2009, 06:23:21 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive