Author Topic: Cha-based caster optimization  (Read 4040 times)

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afroakuma

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Cha-based caster optimization
« on: March 18, 2009, 05:01:37 PM »
shapechangeunavailable sources, so:

Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Magic of Faerun
Dragon Magic
All Eberron material
Heroes of Horror
Heroes of Battle
Expanded Psionics Handbook

Now, the build presented to me was Bard 2/Conjurer 5/Spellthief 1/Duskblade 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 9.

The key to this build, as presented to me, is taking Master Spellthief at 9th level to bring all of its caster levels to parity, then fully building Sublime Chord casting through Ultimate Magus and ending up with CL 24 in Sublime Chord and Wizard.

As far as feats, I know I want Rapid Metamagic for the spontaneous casting, as well as Quicken Spell. Minor Shapeshift has been suggested to me to give me a hit point buffer, and I've also thought about taking the Conjurer Abrupt Jaunt variant, since I don't want a familiar.

I also get a 21st level, and therefore one epic feat (which must not be Epic Spellcasting) and I'm not sure what class to take it in.

Lastly, she has two inconsequential flaws, so I have an additional two feats to play around with.

What are your opinions of this build, are there any ways to improve it under those terms, and do you have any recommendations for spell selection, magic items and remaining feats?

Thank you!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 05:40:32 PM by afroakuma »

Khorus

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 05:15:21 PM »
Not a suggestion but I say the must forsake her god entry, Defiant from planar handbook lets you trade in cleric levels for Defiant levels and gives some nice bonus, doesn't really fit in your build mechanically.

Prime32

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 06:01:15 PM »
Take your first level in wizard. Specialise (or focused specialist) in conjuration, with the Abrupt Jaunt ACFPHB2, and the variant which trades Scribe Scroll for a fighter bonus featUA. Take the Precocious ApprenticeCArc feat for a 2nd-level spell slot.

Next take at least one level in bard, and two levels in monk or rogue to pick up evasion.

You should soon qualify for ur-priestCDiv (a class which forsakes deities and loses any prior divine casting). After two levels, take 10 levels of geomancerCDiv, using Spell versatility to make your ur-priest casting Cha-based.

Top off the build with fochlucan lyristCAdv.


So, something like Necropolitan Lesser aasimar Conjurer 1/Rogue 2/Bard 2/Ur-priest 2/Geomancer 10/Fochlucan lyrist 4
You can pick up wings from your geomancer levels, and the Otherworldy feat makes you an Outsider (though you don't need it if you're undead). Combined with Lesser aasimar (which is LA +0, by the way) you don't need half-celestial. Likewise, the necropolitan template is also LA +0 - a much cheaper option for a lich.

You have access to Divine Metamagic with this build, which makes it much easier to Quicken things.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 06:22:43 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 06:12:03 PM »
I'd probably add Contemplative to Prime32's build, to get some domains, as long as the DM lets you contemplate an ideal, or worship a dead god as an Ur-Priest or something.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 06:20:35 PM »
I'd probably add Contemplative to Prime32's build, to get some domains, as long as the DM lets you contemplate an ideal, or worship a dead god as an Ur-Priest or something.
All gods must die = Death and/or Destruction domain. You want it so bad, you become supernaturally good at it.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 06:25:30 PM »
I'd probably add Contemplative to Prime32's build, to get some domains, as long as the DM lets you contemplate an ideal, or worship a dead god as an Ur-Priest or something.
All gods must die = Death and/or Destruction domain. You want it so bad, you become supernaturally good at it.
I like Sin-Envy. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 06:31:47 PM »
Alright, I should probably clarify:

Lich is non-negotiable. I can't change that. The character is going to have the lich template, and no substitutions will work. So I have to work around that. Ditto half-celestial.

Ur-priest will not be allowed, nor will any other sources of divine power from non-deific sources.

Prime32

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 06:45:33 PM »
Ur-priest will not be allowed, nor will any other sources of divine power from non-deific sources.
Eh? "I shun deities" is the ur-priest's whole shtick. In fact, I'm surprised anyone could propose a build that shuns deities without including it. :p
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Eldariel

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 06:51:22 PM »
Ur-priest will not be allowed, nor will any other sources of divine power from non-deific sources.
Eh? "I shun deities" is the ur-priest's whole shtick. In fact, I'm surprised anyone could propose a build that shuns deities without including it. :p

As I understand, divine energy in general is unreliable in the said world and thus casters that cast divine spells, no matter how they acquire them, cannot really be used.

afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 06:55:11 PM »
Eldariel! Fancy meeting you here!

I'm trying to broaden my options here without taking a gamble on the divine. And you're right, that would include ur-priest.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 10:29:19 PM »
The Unseelie Fey template from Dragon Compendium (page 222) is +0 LA, gives a +2 bonus to cha (among other stat effects), and gives some nice abilities
Fey type (meh)
50% chance of natural flight, with varying wing types
20% chance of darkvision or better (there's some miscellaneous options, including a 5% chance of blindsight)
A seasonal power (pick one: cure a couple of status conditions with touch range turn undead as a standard action, permanent magic circle against nature, a supernatural touch spell dispel magic cha mod/day, or all living nonfey in 5' get -your cha to saves)
Also, DR that scales with your levels, up to 15/cold iron.

There are a couple of downsides.  You take an extra d6 damage from attacks with iron/steel weapons, and 1 damage just from touching them, and one of the stat mods is a -2 to con.  And you can't really rely on getting lucky with the wing/eye abilities.
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afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 10:46:49 PM »
I had been considering star elf for my base race, which would be the same (-2 con, +2 cha) and the Con penalty becomes meaningless when she becomes a lich in any event. I also already get flight and darkvision through the half-celestial template already... that getting -(your Charisma bonus) to saves is quite tempting, though... too bad about the range. Ideally, I'd never be within 5 ft. of the poor saps who thought they could take me on.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2009, 10:49:50 PM »
Well, since it's a template you can have star elf too.  :D

Anyway, did you say you were a good lich or a bad lich?  Libris Mortis has rules for variants with evil outsider liches as well as good liches on 157.



Since the best DR is used in all cases... DR 15/Bludgeoning, Cold Iron, AND Magic is pretty hard to overcome.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 10:52:29 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2009, 11:01:51 PM »
I should look into that, then...not so sure about the downsides, but I'll see. I can always use more Charisma.

And she's going to be an evil lich. Evil evil evil.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2009, 11:24:20 PM »
Might as well mention Fell Energy Spell while I'm at it.  More dragon material, I'm afraid.

It's a +1 metamagic that makes all benefits from your spells explicitly defined as bonuses two higher for undead targets. 

For instance, a Fell Energy Protection from Good would give a +4 deflection to AC and +4 to saves.  Nifty.


Yeah, I've been doing a somewhat similar optimization for the Let's Go Ultra Hero Burning Force game. 

If you have LA buyoff available, and can stomach some more, take a look at the phrenic template.  Too cheesy for my purposes, I'm afraid, but you might find some use for it.
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afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2009, 11:37:12 PM »
Phrenic is unavailable, being psionic in nature.

Does anyone have feat suggestions? Spell suggestions? Magic item suggestions?

afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2009, 08:27:02 PM »
Pardon me for the bump, but I could still use some suggestions if anyone has any ideas?

While I appreciate the earlier suggestions, they did unfortunately go in a completely different direction from what I'm looking for, as it seems that they focused on "how to evade one restriction" instead of "given x restrictions..."

If anyone has any further input it would be greatly appreciated.

Idontknow

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2009, 12:56:36 PM »
I have a variant on the build presented earlier on.

the advantage is it nets you more wizard casting ,
the disadvantage being, that wizard will mosty be your primary casting source ( but you cant add more ultimate magus casting to SC if you want)

Human paragon 1/wiz 1/Human paragon +2/wiz +4/spellsinger 1/Ultimate magus 1/sublime chord 1/Ultimate magus +9


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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2009, 02:28:02 PM »
Not sure why HoH is off the table for you, but if it's just thematics or a specific suggestion you wanted to avoid, take a long hard look at Tainted Scholar 1. The class as a whole is decidedly meh, but a one-level dip is insanely, ridiculously great for an undead caster. Casting and bonus spells shift to depravity-based (starting depravity being cha-based), you get two bonus feats, and depravity goes up as you cast. And you're immune to it. And I can see some thematic synergy with the concept as you've explained it to me.

afroakuma

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Re: Cha-based caster optimization
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2009, 03:53:03 PM »
From what I've read of Tainted Scholar, it seems rife for abuse in a very very bad way... also, corruption and depravity as terms don't really match the character.

She's already got a Cha score of 30 without magic items, so assuming I was just going to use (not abuse) the Tainted Scholar, there wouldn't be much variance.

Charisma = base 18, +6 templates, +2 age, +2 racial, +2 leveling.