Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs

[Zarothar]

What entry renders the Master of Masks as a +1 tier PrC?

Bard? Well, according to Jaron's analysis, Bards are tier 3. A +1 tier PrC would take them to tier 2. Do you see anything in the MoM's class features that would raise a Bard entry to the level of a Psion or Sorcerer? I don't. 

All I see is: crippled spellcasting (5/10), no music progression, no bardic knowledge/knack progression, less skill points, and poor BAB. In exchange, you get the illusion of versatility through switch-able... But surely not enough to make up for all that you lose.

Similarly, does it raise the Rogue to tier 3? Not a chance. Look at that skill list - unless you're Human and burning a feat on Able Learner, your skills are limited. If you survive 10 levels, you can do such great things as... dimension door once a day. Sneak attack and sneak at ALMOST the same level as you could have with regular Rogue levels (okay, if you've got Able Learner, you could pump up the sneaking). Fly for 5 rounds 4 times a day. Summon weak and quickly outpaced creatures once a day. Have a breath weapon three times a day. Nondetection. Or some surprisingly decent damage from natural weapons.

Factotum entry - same problem as the Bard. You're not really gaining anything... Maybe you're not losing as much as the Bard is, but you're certainly not going to be threatening the Psions and Sorcerers for power level.

... come to think of it, if you changed every mention of "day" to "encounter", this PrC would be kinda cool.

Now, don't get me wrong - I like the class, and it's quite a fun concept. As it stands, though, I don't see how it could ever be considered to be a +1 tier class.

As a dip, I guess the gladiator mask is certainly worth it. Proficiency with all martial and exotic weapons, as well as a +1 attack/damage bonus; it's actually really worth it for a melee type if you can qualify and swallow the BAB hit. I'd hardly consider that to be worth +1 tier, though.

Honestly, I'd rate the PrC as a -1 or -2 (for a Bard, at least), with a similar disclaimer as the Mindbender with regards to a one-level dip. I suppose there's an argument for it being a +0 for Rogue entry, but it's kinda weak... I'd say it's a step down for any self-respecting Factotum, given the lack of synergy.

Have I overlooked something? Is this class not shiet? 

[sonofzeal]

Have I overlooked something? Is this class not shiet? 

I didn't review this one (I haven't even fully read the class), so I don't know.  I can see your argument for lowering it, and other people have commented too.  I'll take a quick look and move it down, either to equal or to -1.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Does the ghost savage progression count as a prestige class?

It's about four types of awesome.  Especially with LA buyoff.

Once you hit 15 hit dice, you can't be killed.  Most effects that ought to permanently kill you don't, because Rejuvenation isn't a spell and isn't listed in the default text.

Yeah... What source?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Does the ghost savage progression count as a prestige class?

It's about four types of awesome.  Especially with LA buyoff.

Once you hit 15 hit dice, you can't be killed.  Most effects that ought to permanently kill you don't, because Rejuvenation isn't a spell and isn't listed in the default text.

Yeah... What source?

Oh, web enhancement.  Sorry.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

Level 5 is just awful.  Fortunately, they've said you don't have to take all the levels.  And getting +1 LA, buying it off, getting another +1 la, buying it off, is just great. 

The loss of hit points is kinda sucky, I admit

[Operation Shoestring]

Unseen Seer is a tricky one.  Very fun, and gives you decent stuff for it's cost, but still a -1 compared to straight Wizard.  Flat out better than any other wizard/rogue combo though, so you might call that a +1

[woodenbandman]

I don't think that Unseen Seer is a -1 at all. Practiced Spellcaster solves the CL problem, and you only lose 1 Spells Known level, which is a good trade for the cool stuff you get. +0 should be fine for it. It's no weaker than a pure wizard just because it has 2 fewer spells. It is annoying to be on pace with the Sorceror, but the Vancian casting makes up for that.

[sonofzeal]

I have no problem with Unseen Seer as a +0.  Does anyone want to take a crack at rating the rest of Complete Mage while we're on the subject?




I'll be updating the lists later today.  Here's the changes going in...

Up Two
- Spellwarp Sniper
+ Anarchic Initiate
+ Legendary Captain
+ Walker in the Waste
+ Zerth Cenobite

Up One
- Master of Masks
+ Ashworm Dragoon
+ Ectopic Adept
+ Flayerspawn Psychic
+ Illumine Soul
+ Leviathan Hunter
+ Sand Shaper (Sorc Entry)
+ Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
+ Scorpion Heritor
+ Spellwarp Sniper


Equal
- Hospitaler
+ Knight of the Pearl
+ Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)
+ Master of Masks
+ Unseen Seer

Down One
+ Hospitaler
+ Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)
+ Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry)
+ Scarlet Corsair (except with capstone abuse)
+ Sea Witch
+ Stormcaster
+ Storm Disciple

Down Two
+ Wavekeeper
+ Ebon Saint

[Optimator]

Invisible Blade is really killed by having two entry feats that have nothing to do with the abilities it advances, with some logical entry feats it would be a shoe in for +1.

I remember reading somewhere that Master Thrower and Invisible Blade used to be the same prestige class but was split into two at a later point.  Supposedly the odd pre-reqs are typos.  Same with Vow of Poverty for the Apostle of Peace being a typo. 

I cannot, for the life of me, see why Warpriest isn't a -1 prc.

[Surreal]

Here's the original Invisible Blade from the author: http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_prestige_classes_page.htm

Reportedly they tried to trim it down to a 5-level PC but forgot to change the prereqs.

[sonofzeal]

Races of the Wild, first draft

Going by the examples in your thread, they are like this:

Up two tiers[spoiler]N/A[/spoiler]
Up one tier[spoiler]Arcane Hierophant, Skypledged, Whisperknife[/spoiler]
Same[spoiler]Ruather, Champion of Corellon, Stormtalon[/spoiler]
Down one[spoiler]Wildrunner, luckstealer[/spoiler]

Does this help?

[Zarothar]

Hm... I'm not completely sure about those Complete Psionics ratings. In response to your request for thoughts, here are mine:

The Flayerspawn Psychic simply cannot raise the Psion from Tier 2 to Tier 1.

• First, look at the company that the Flayerspawn would have. Wizard, Cleric, and Druid.
• Next, look at the actual abilities that it gets... 3 Bonus "Illithid Feats" and a Mind Blast usable a maximum of six times a day.
• Next, look what it gives up compared to Psion 20. Four manifester levels. Two bonus feats (encompassing much more flexibility than the "Illithid" feats). That effectively means 6 powers known, 122 power points, and access to 9th level powers.
• Consider also: You need to take Practised Manifester in order to get ML 20. Effectively, that means you're only gaining two bonus feats, and those are heavily restricted when compared to the straight Psion's options. (Note: Illithid feats are Psionic feats, so the Psion can choose them as a bonus feat. There's not even a selection advantage with the Flayerspawn Psychic.)
• Up a tier? More like DOWN a tier. Sorry, Mind Flayer wannabe. You were kinda lame to begin with.
• Alternative entry classes aren't much kinder to the old beast. I guess Ardent shenanigans might allow you to get back 9th level powers, but you're still crippling yourself for useless abilities. Solid -1 tier, pushing into -2 territory when you consider just how useless it is.

• Compared to Lurk 20, a Lurk 15/Ebon Saint 5 loses 12 pp, 1 power known, 1 ML, and augment progression.
• In return, they get a decent ability in Dire Strike (especially in 1v1 situations), a minor stealth boost in Shadowfriend, and the ability to use Dire Augments.
• In terms of sheer combat ability, Lurk Augments are better than Dire Augments. The Ebon Saint PrC is one that feels specialised for a particular style of play - a from-the-shadows sort of spy. It's not really that bad within its niche, and niches are what PrCs are all about.
• I'd say, for Lurk entry, the Ebon Saint qualifies as a weak -1 tier, with the possibility of being +0 tier.
• Hm... But wait! The Ebon Saint is supposed to be a Lurk class, but it actually works really well with non-Lurk entry. The PrC is actually a bit of a Rogue/Psion hybrid, and it doesn't work too badly in that context. You could also sneak into it with the Psychic Rogue class.
• Conclusion? It's not an amazing class, but I'd say it has a shout at being +0 tier at best, -1 tier at worst. The simple fact is, if you're aiming for a stealth/spying Lurk, it doesn't actually outright harm you (despite lack of augment progression) - it just makes some tradeoffs that can seem to be a step down. When you consider other methods of entry, it's really not that bad. In my opinion, +0 tier.
  (Also, Metamorphic Transfer plus the Steal Form ability could get pretty cool.)

[PhaedrusXY]

I can understand the argument for +2 tiers, though, as it is the most powerful Psion PrC. My concerns are probably just a result of me being cautious. The win that is Wild Surge as a Psion (by RAW, with no chance of Enervation) cannot be underestimated. +1 tier would be the safe bet, but I guess +2 tiers is reasonable.

Thrallherd is ripe for far more abuse than Anarchic Initiate. So what if you can Wild Surge all the time? No one really cares much. It gives you a nice little boost, but it hardly breaks the game.

With a thrallherd, you can get access to free XP via multiple methods, and basically every power and psionic or metapsionic feat in the game (feat leech + thieving mindlink on your Thralls and/or believers, or permanently with Psychic Chirurgery manifested by a Thrall). You can also dominate the hell out of things for very few power points.

With Metaconcert, you can have access to all those powers at the same time, draw on the power points of your followers and thralls to fuel them, and get a +10 to your save DCs. Yeah, you can't move much and your mooks are squishy, but there are certainly ways around those problems, like manifesting through your psicrystal (if it's within 1 mile), manifesting through Ring Gates (if within 100 miles), manifesting through Remote Viewing (any distance, but allows a save), or having "the entity" possess a mindless undead via Stygian Dominion and using that to act through (any distance, no save, but some risk).

So yeah, if any PrC can lay claim to "the most powerful psion PrC", it is hands down the Thrallherd. It's probably not on the same level as things like the Planar Shepard, but it isn't too far behind.

[Zarothar]

[Solo]

Excellent work, Zeal. Very useful and enjoyable Tier system.

[jameswilliamogle]

Having a go on the Shadow Magic section of ToM:

Shadowsmith - +0 (-0.5 to 0; value depends on character's purchasing power)
Looking at the entry requirements, the typical entry to this class would be...  a Fighter (and/or Rogue) multiclass.  Its ridiculously easy to get into, but the class abilities are just OK.  Being able to get some skill bonuses a very limited number of times per day is weak.  Creating temporary arms and armor at a fairly high enhancement bonus for free later on is much cooler, and the only class ability worth taking.  Overall, you gain some very cool abilities, which is cool, but you also give up a ton of bonus feats in later levels (when one can take the advanced combat feats), or other more useful combat PrCs.  And, all these abilities can be emulated by buying magic equipment.  

Shadowblade - +0 (0 to +0.5 depending on access to different PrCs and sourcebooks)
Typical entry would be a Rogue (or Ranger).  So, if we're to consider the Rogue / Shadowblade build to a straight Rogue, the PrC loses a few sneak attack dice, and in turn gains class abilities to much more reliably use sneak attack.  Its actually a decent PrC, but one basically has to compare the class abilities to the Rogue special abilities starting at 10th level; I personally like the Rogue abilities better, but these are gained much earlier, so its a balance / campaign / gameplay issue.

Noctumancer - +1 (-0.5 to +1.5; it all depends on the "Creeping Darkness" option, and what the build is shooting for)
The entry here would be a Shadowcaster / Arcane Caster.  Shadowcasters are not arcane casters, but they do have some power.  If you are looking to just mix in some standard spellcasting into a primary shadowcaster build, then this is +1, as it can override the non-shadowcaster classes, essentially gaining spellcasting at no cost other than some silly non-mystery class abilities (see Creeping Darkness in ToM).  If you are looking to add mysteries to a spellcaster, this is 0, since you lose out on CL and spellcasting.  IF you're trying to make a counterspeller, this is a great class, and Warp and Echo Spell are excellent methods of counterspelling.

Master of Shadow - +1
Straight Shadowcasters w/ Shadow Familiar take this class.  Compared to the later class abilities, the powers gained are pretty kick arse.  I've read very good things.  I don't like Shadow Elementals in general, but you essentially just lose the unlimited / day fundamental abilities, which are very weak by the time you get them.

Child of the Night - 0
Shadowcasters take this, lose a CL, and gain essentially cold resistance and some bonuses on Hide instead, as well as a continuous blur effect (eventually).  Considering the best ability is duplicated in a core magic item makes it annoyingly inefficient, but its a testament to how weak the end-game Shadowcaster mysteries are that it still only gets a net 0 ranking.

OK, thats my evaluation, hope it helps!

[tusk]

Here's my take on the Frostburn splat book PrCs. Feel free to weigh in.

Cloud Ancorite: Seems to be logical entry for Monks, Requires 2 entry feats(Mountaineer, Improved Unarmed Combat), some boost in monkiness(Climb, jump, etc.) Later, get Quickend Airwalk 1/day. I can see a +0, or a WEAK +1.

Cryokineticist: An ice-chucking machine relies on Psi-like Abilities. Lots of DD, some resistant to cold( not immunity!). -1.

Disciple of Thrym: Not-so-easy entry Beat-stick with limited Divine casting, smite-like attack, immune to fire by 10th.
weak +1.

Frost Mage: 4 levels long class for Wizards or Sorcerors with Lackluster summon, piddly amount of NA(wtf?), bypasses cold resistance granted by spell-likes and items. nothing special. -2.

Frost Rager: For Barbarians uses Unarmed strike(bwhh?), +NA while rage, auto-stables, immunity to cold, 50% absorption of ice damage. Narrowly focused +0.

Knight of Iron glacier: For Fighters or Knights. You get a war-trained giant Moose for mount. Otherwise a Knight(the base class)-Lite. -1 for Knight, +0 for Fighter.

Primeval: For barbarians with 3 feats to throw away. A limited version of wild shape subject to DM fiat.  You get -s to mental stats, +s to physicals. -1.

Stormsinger: Bard PrC, able to mimic (storm related) spells though music. +0.

[sonofzeal]

Hooray for everyone submitting reviews!

Life's intervened so actual list updates are delayed a bit, but should go up within the next couple days.

[woodenbandman]

I'll give this a go, and I will review Magic of Incarnum. Also tome of Magic (binder PrC's only).

Here we go:

Incandescent Champion: Could work for a paladin or Soulborn entry, easyish requirements. You get decent abilities (Incarnum Overload is great for multiclassed Incarnates) and possibly Unbearable Countenance. +1 for Soulborns MAYBE, but for an Incarnate it's probably a -1. The loss of Meldshaping totally nails this class, Half meldshaping would make it passable.

Incarnum Blade: I don't even care. -5 tiers. Just a total waste of damn time(jk). As a 1 level dip for the feet chakra blademeld, this is actually not bad, except that anyone who would benefit already has Combat Reflexes. Light fortification is okay, but also cheap to get normally, and the Throat chakra bind is rather good (a Con based DC + your Incarnum Blade level), but only lasts a round. Intimidate is probably better. The Heart Chakra version is decent, but the Soul chakra version is absolute garbage. +0 for any straight martial class, otherwise -2. Just utterly bad.

Ironsoul Forgemaster: GODDAMN FINALLY. A good class. 9/10 meldshaping HOLY SHIT. decent # chakra binds, easy to qualify... very mutable combat related abilities that are active at the same time as your soulmelds... that's versatile, holmes. You can craft epic items early, if you can get an epic spellcaster (yeah, right), but also, you can craft 20th level items if you have a chameleon in the party starting at level 15, and earlier than that you can still get items ahead of your characters' caster level. This is a great crafter class, though not the best...

You can get DR, Energy Resistance, as well as an Insight bonus on damage and a Dazzle effect. Great for ranged weapons, because you can add a bunch of bonus damage on there (couple with Knowledge devotion if you can swing the skillpoints for about +12 or more damage per shot).

This class is easily a +1 for incarnate, the only disadvantage is the loss of some Chakra binds, but it's still a very good class.

Necrocarnate: Wow. Holy ass. This is a fantastic class, because you can get a butt-ton of essentia and use the Necrocarnum Zombies to great effect. You can potentially get infinite essentia, but it's bad juju. Theoretically a +2 tier, but the DM may cap the essentia you can gain by requiring a certain number of hit dice. Theoretically passable for a totemist, but it's really an incarnate PrC. Also zombies rule.

Sapphire Hierarch: It's got foibles, but it's also totally cool. You get some inconsequential abilities, a smite attack which is nice, you have soulmeld/spell synergy, and with Law Devotion you're a badass motherfucker. It's not a +1, but it's not a -1 either. A battle cleric can benefit greatly from the abilities, even though the book says that you're supposed to cast spells (we know differently, though, don't we?) +0 for a cleric, because the addition of the Incarnum adds to their combat prowess (at low levels you have a +3 weapon, at high levels you have bonus damage/extra power attack 'n shit). If this allowed for Lawful Evil to access the evil incarnate melds for bonus damage, this'd be even better, but bonus on attack rolls + 2HW = bonus damage.

Soulcaster: +0. You get a bonus to your DCs when it matters, you have a few good defensive soulmelds (and the illusion booster is killer), but you lose 2 caster levels. And the capstone is okay if you really need some essentia. Requires a crap feat to enter.

Spinemeld Warrior: We all know how often a TWF class ends in tiers. No bonus damage, forcefeeds you flavor, you get gimpy meldshaping... The saving grace is the rend ability, and that's a [iece of shit too. Not to mention that it writes like a class made so that you can add something cool to an existing character, but it requires a race that was introduced IN THIS BOOK. -2 tiers, for anyone.

Totem Rager: It takes away some awesome totemist powers, but it gives you great benefits. In terms of real damage a Totem Rager is capable of more, but it's probably more fun to play a totemist. Great to add on to an existing barbarian, but it's really powerful as a Totemist 8/Barbarian2/Totemist10. Honestly, the only thing you'll miss is the 11th level ability and the capstone of the totemist class, otherwise it plays pretty good. And Totem Rage is ridiculous, and so is Totem Chakra Bind. Overall... +0 to the overall character's effectiveness, since a straight Totemist is more powerful, but it's also a very good use of the barbarian class. This character would rank at a very solid tier 3.

Umbral Disciple: Forcefed flavor, but you get good bonuses to acrobatics, Kiss of the Shadows is a good capstone for flanking without actually going up next to people,  and a 3 level dip gets you Embrace of Shadow for miss chance AND Hide in Plain Sight (it references the ranger class feature, but I think that's a gaff because it specifically says "you can hide while being observed). Easy cheesy prerequisites, if useless. Soulchilling Strike is rather good. +1 tier for any sneak. Exception: Factotums are awesome already. -1 tier for a factotum.

Witchborn Binder: Forcefed flavor. In theory it shuts down spellcasters... right. -1 tier, not worth it. The capstone can be easily broken, the concentration check is nothing, and polymorph's been around for a while now, mkay, WotC? Word of Abrogation is basically an at-will counterspell, but you lose meldshaper levels, making the dispel check hard, and the class as a whole is utterly useless against anything that doesn't have SLAs. IF you just go to 6th level in the class, maybe you can make an effective counterspeller, but the rest of your usefulness will suffer, and it has shit for range, meaning a caster will figure out that they can just move 60 feet away.

So, those are my rankings.

[Zarothar]

Here's my take on the Frostburn splat book PrCs. Feel free to weigh in.

Cloud Ancorite: Seems to be logical entry for Monks, Requires 2 entry feats(Mountaineer, Improved Unarmed Combat), some boost in monkiness(Climb, jump, etc.) Later, get Quickend Airwalk 1/day. I can see a +0, or a WEAK +1.

+0. It's not that great compared to a straight Monk, I'm afraid...

Cryokineticist: An ice-chucking machine relies on Psi-like Abilities. Lots of DD, some resistant to cold( not immunity!). -1.

Absolutely bizarre class. They just repackaged the Pyrokineticist with slightly different numbers and weaker abilities. Agreed on the -1 - this class is crap. (All they needed was a copy-paste of this no-brainer article.)

Disciple of Thrym: Not-so-easy entry Beat-stick with limited Divine casting, smite-like attack, immune to fire by 10th.
weak +1.

Yeah... It's not bad. Agreed on the weak +1. Depends how you enter it, though; it's useless for a tier 3 melee class (Duskblade, Wildshape Ranger, Martial Adept).

Frost Mage: 4 levels long class for Wizards or Sorcerors with Lackluster summon, piddly amount of NA(wtf?), bypasses cold resistance granted by spell-likes and items. nothing special. -2.

-2?  Are you kidding? It's a full-casting PrC; those are, almost by default, a minimum of +0 tier. The spells you learn are a bit lacklustre, but they're freebies for a Sorcerer. +1 tier for Sorcerers, +0 tier for Wizards?

Frost Rager: For Barbarians uses Unarmed strike(bwhh?), +NA while rage, auto-stables, immunity to cold, 50% absorption of ice damage. Narrowly focused +0.

Agreed. Sadly, by RAW, Superior Unarmed Strike's better damage dice would be overridden by Frostrage...

Knight of Iron glacier: For Fighters or Knights. You get a war-trained giant Moose for mount. Otherwise a Knight(the base class)-Lite. -1 for Knight, +0 for Fighter.

Agreed. Unspectacular for a Fighter, but not actually harmful. +6 initiative is a nice touch.

Primeval: For barbarians with 3 feats to throw away. A limited version of wild shape subject to DM fiat.  You get -s to mental stats, +s to physicals. -1.

Naw, it's +1 territory (in my opinion). The Primeval Form ability is better than you think; the physical scores (-10) of the form are added to the Primeval's ability scores. So, if you chose the Dire Lion form, you'd be looking at +14 Strength, +4 Dex, and +6 Con. Pardon me, but I think that's better than Rage. Stacks with it, too.

Stormsinger: Bard PrC, able to mimic (storm related) spells though music. +0.

Agreed. You don't lose any casting, but you do lose skill points and most of your buff songs. +0.

P.S. You forgot the Rimefire Witch and the Winterhaunt of Iborighu.

My take on those two:

Rimefire Witch - Mm... I'd rate it as a weak +1. You're not really losing much as a Cleric, although the entry feats are sub-par. Rimefire Bond and Detect Minion are more role-playing abilities (although being the friend of some ancient shard of a diety can't be a bad thing, right?). Rimefire Bolt is kinda cool, although mediocre. The spell-like abilities aren't fantastic, but they aren't bad. Turning into a Fey and getting +2 Charisma and DR 5/cold iron at the end of the PrC isn't a bad capstone. Unless you love turning undead or Cleric level-dependent domain abilities, you're not going to lose anything compared to a Cleric 20.

Winterhaunt of Iborighu - Decent abilities, full spellcasting progression. If, for some reason, you're a cleric blaster specialising in cold spells ( ), it's actually pretty boss. Plus, hey, you become an Elemental (immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, critical hits, flanking, and the need to eat/breathe/sleep) at the end; that's pretty cool, no? Transformational class with no caster level loss; not bad. +1 tier.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Anyway, the writeup

Ghost Savage Progression (Web enhancement,
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)

Up one tier/ possibly two with LA buyoff.

No qualifications (other than being dead) make this an easy entry.  If you consider the base character for entry to be a dead one, one might argue that this is as high as up five tiers.  Depending on what you want to get out of it, each level up to four can serve as a breakpoint.  Anyway, it can convert anyone below tier three to tier three without much hassle, and with LA buyoff it only costs some XP.

Anyway, you don't gain hit dice for savage progression levels, which certainly is a bit of a concern without LA buyoff.  Depending on your build, they can still be worth it (telekinesis spam alone justifies taking two levels for glass cannons), and the third level rejuvenation ability makes up for some of the added squishiness.

Since savage progression levels are gradually acquired LA, using LA buyoff on them is a really smart move.  You can stagger how you acquire abilities from the progression, with one savage progression level for every three normal levels, and since "Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1", you could buy off all five levels of the savage progression by level fifteen.