Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs  (Read 76951 times)

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Negative Zero

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2009, 05:19:11 AM »
I don't think Sentinel of Bharrai is +2. The Bear Shape ability is nice because it's at will, but it's otherwise inferior to just casting Polymorph most of the time. Quickened Call Lightning and Quickened Lightning Storm isn't so great because you still have to spend standard actions to call down the lightning. It's a very good Prestige Class, but not that good. Would you say that it puts a Bard or Beguiler on par with a Wizard?

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2009, 05:38:13 AM »
I don't think Sentinel of Bharrai is +2. The Bear Shape ability is nice because it's at will, but it's otherwise inferior to just casting Polymorph most of the time. Quickened Call Lightning and Quickened Lightning Storm isn't so great because you still have to spend standard actions to call down the lightning. It's a very good Prestige Class, but not that good. Would you say that it puts a Bard or Beguiler on par with a Wizard?
It's less that it makes Bards on par with Wizards, and more that it makes Wizards on par with Wizard//Druid gestalts.  Worse BAB/HP, but bonus quickens and a bunch of extra resistances.  No limit on times-per-day, and since it functions like Polymorph that means pretty solid free healing.  Also, since it's based on Polymorph and not Alternate Form, your hitpoints go up with your new Constitution.  Also, unlike Wildshape, you can still talk to humans without taking MoMF.

Or, to put it otherwise.....

[spoiler][/spoiler]

...except with full Wizard spellcasting instead of guns.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2009, 06:54:51 PM »
I'm moving Invisible Blade up to an "Equal" (since there really isn't any major loss over straight Rogue), and someone's arguing for an "Up One" (full SA with a chance for an extra die, full BAB, AC bonus, Arterial Strike... and Feint if you really want it).  I'm not sure though (half the skillpoints, stuck with daggers, poor entry feats, lose Rogue Special Ability).  Any thoughts?

Also, the same person's arguing that Warmind should be an "Equal", since it requires some psi-affinity to start but restarts your manifesting progression.  I see the logical entry as multiclassed psi/non-psi (but you could get in via Wild Talent or a psi race), and I think it works just fine for that, but apparently some disagree. Any thoughts?

TheWordSlinger

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2009, 10:10:25 PM »
I agree with you on both points.
Invisible Blade is really killed by having two entry feats that have nothing to do with the abilities it advances, with some logical entry feats it would be a shoe in for +1. As is, it's a decent prestige class that loses a lot of power because any build that includes it will become feat strapped rather quickly.
I think the logical way into Warmind would involve the Knowledge devotion and a psionic race, so the acquisition of rapid PsiWar-esque power progression would be very much a plus one.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2009, 12:17:02 AM »
Thanks, WordSlinger!

Complete Scoundrel 1st draft, from Samb over at GiantITP
+2: master of masks
+1: avenging executioner, magical trickster, mountebank, spellearp sniper, psibond agent, malconvotor
+0: battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, grey guard, unncanny trickster
-1: cloaked dancer
-2: none

TheWordSlinger

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2009, 12:42:13 AM »
Thanks, WordSlinger!

Complete Scoundrel 1st draft, from Samb over at GiantITP
+2: master of masks
+1: avenging executioner, magical trickster, mountebank, spellearp sniper, psibond agent, malconvotor
+0: battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, grey guard, unncanny trickster
-1: cloaked dancer
-2: none

Please tell me this is some kind of joke. And I say that having seen a Master of Masks in play. Granted, he wasn't the best of optimizers, but it's just one of those prestige classes that gives you a new set of class abilities and they ain't nothin' to write home about.
Currently playing:
Forte Lulz, Chaotic EVIL Bard bent on world domination;
Canere Potentia, to sing of power.
Aralaxax, Warforged Osteomancer, Machines are my people, I wield bones as other wield swords.
Randall Gray, she's not sexually confused, honest!
Zion "I can make followers, but why bother when people line up for me?"
Currently DMing: Real Men Use Their Hands, World's Largest Dungeon
"If you can pretend to be a half-orc barbarian or a dwarf wizard then you can pretend to be an alpha male."-Ninjarabbit
"The hotel shop only had two decent books, and I'd written both of them."-Douglas Adams
"It's funny how the Earth never opens up and swallows you when you want it to." Xander Harris, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2009, 12:46:32 AM »
Thrallherd: at least +1, due to crazy things like Fusion, Metaconcert, Feat Leech, Thieving Mindlink, etc, that let you use the abilities of your thralls and believers. Can be +2, if combined with other abuses, like splitting XP costs for powers/crafting among believers, and then killing those believers and getting new ones to "leech" from.

Edit: I see you have it at +1. I guess I should have looked first.  :bigeye I've just been working on one, and realizing how crazy it can get...
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 12:55:22 AM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2009, 12:53:00 AM »
I think that SWS could be +2. It removes saves. That's disgustingly good.

Wih

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2009, 09:03:36 AM »
Wasn't Invisible Blade errata'd to have only Focus and Finesse as entry feats? That, plus Suprising Riposte make the class easily +1 tier, borderline +2 considering a standard rogue entry.

Warmind is a very, very, very, very good class. Sweeping Strike alone would make taking 5 levels of Warrior worthwhile, if it netted it at the 5th level, like Warmind (ok, that might be a slight exadduration, but...). Sweeping Strike + Expansion + DR. It's a pretty damn good tank class. I accidentally broke a GM by using Improved Trip + Sweeping Strike + Practiced Manifester for Huge size. Not allowed to play Warminds anymore...anyway, back on topic: Since Warmind requires a very minimal PP amount to enter, it isn't intended for full casters, it's intended for Psionic races or a small dip in Psiwarrior or something similar. Based a standard melee class entry with a psionic race, it's a +2 tier. Entry through Psiwarrior would probably be +1.

Avenging Executioner looks good on the surface, but you lose 2 BAB and your class abilities are not only fear abilities but are limited by HD. It's nice, and I've always wanted to play a Ninja/Avenging Executioner/Ghost Faced Killer...but it's not optimal IMHO. I'd peg it as +0 myself as it's class features are of limited use against anything with racial HD...which is most things.

I don't recall the Montebank being anything special - I would find it hard to believe it's worth a + tier...nothing unique to give that I've seen.

Master of Masks is really only good for a small dip to get proficiency with every weapon with the Gladiator mask. That's about it. It's a fun class, but nothing special, tier wise. I'd peg it as +0 tier assuming a Bard entry due to it's flexibility, but -1 or -2 assuming any entry with something that casts better than a bard. It's like Chameleon that can switch it's focus quicker, but is less powerful...and nowhere near as flexible as Factotum.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2009, 11:36:12 AM »
Thanks, WordSlinger!

Complete Scoundrel 1st draft, from Samb over at GiantITP
+2: master of masks
+1: avenging executioner, magical trickster, mountebank, spellearp sniper, psibond agent, malconvotor
+0: battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, grey guard, unncanny trickster
-1: cloaked dancer
-2: none

Please tell me this is some kind of joke. And I say that having seen a Master of Masks in play. Granted, he wasn't the best of optimizers, but it's just one of those prestige classes that gives you a new set of class abilities and they ain't nothin' to write home about.
Nope. He's right ... if you interpret the 'appears to be' as adding an extra alignment to your character type. Granted, this is confusing as hell, but thats the best interpretation I can come up with. Also on a dip you can cherry pick away :)

Apostle of Peace (not broken, but scores five "wtf" points for blatantly contradictory text on material possessions)
Um... What? And Where? Its basically a nerfed Ur-Priest. Assuming you can stomach the vows, it is a fast casting class... +1 if you are already going to casting and take the vows, otherwise +0.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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And healed. Don't forget that.
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[/Spoiler]

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More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
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Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
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sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2009, 03:26:11 PM »
Thanks guys; I'll get a (hopefully) corrected list from Samb soon.

Apostle of Peace (not broken, but scores five "wtf" points for blatantly contradictory text on material possessions)
Um... What? And Where? Its basically a nerfed Ur-Priest. Assuming you can stomach the vows, it is a fast casting class... +1 if you are already going to casting and take the vows, otherwise +0.
It's more the fact that it requires Vow of Poverty, and then one paragraph later talks about a special restriction against armors that doesn't apply to Ring of Protection and the ilk.  It's not that the class is so unplayable (but Vow of Poverty + Vow of Peace doesn't help).  There's also the fact that it can't cast many of its spells due to expensive material components.  My ranking was based on these total inconsistencies more than its actual power.  Anyway, Ur-Priest gets the whole Cleric list, while AoP only gets a very specific subset that has never been expanded in any splatbook.  That's a huge difference right there.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2009, 11:08:39 PM »
I'm updating the list with the following changes.  Debate's still open if anyone has more feedback, but corrections will wait for the next major update.

Add to books: Complete Scoundrel (credit Samb)

Add to +2: spellwarp sniper
Add to +1: grey guard, malconvoker, master of masks, magical trickster, mountebank, psibond agent
Add to +0: avenging executioner, battle trickster, combat trapper, fortunes friend, invisible blade, unncanny trickster
Add to -1: cloaked dancer
Add to -2: none

Removed from -1: Invisible Blade
Change: Remove "Wilder" entry for Elocator (it's unnecessary and controversial). Replace with "PsiRogue" just for lulz.

woodenbandman

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2009, 12:23:01 AM »
As a Psiwar entry PrC, I say Warmind's even. Full BAB and all, but loss of power points really cuts down on the survivability, as well as the loss of nice tasty bonus feats. It's about a 50-50 split, in my opinion. Sweeping strike's good and all, but the psywar entry doesn't do anything the class itself doesn't, except that a 10th level Psywar would have more PP, about even powers, and lower BAB than a Psywar 5/Warmind 5.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2009, 12:32:46 AM »
As a Psiwar entry PrC, I say Warmind's even. Full BAB and all, but loss of power points really cuts down on the survivability, as well as the loss of nice tasty bonus feats. It's about a 50-50 split, in my opinion. Sweeping strike's good and all, but the psywar entry doesn't do anything the class itself doesn't, except that a 10th level Psywar would have more PP, about even powers, and lower BAB than a Psywar 5/Warmind 5.
But it doesn't actually require manifesting, and there's about half a dozen good entries to the class that are better.  Skill ranks can be acquired through Knowledge Devotion, any class with class skills including "all knowledge" (Paragnostic Initaite is an easy full-BAB one) or "all" (Factotum, Exemplar), a dip into pretty much any psi class ever printed, or just plain cross-classing it; power points can be acquired through race, feats, templates, or dips. 

That said, I'll grant it's just about "Equal" for pure PsiWars.  I'll split the entry.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 01:54:09 AM »
Quote from: Samb
Here's the preliminary list for complete psionics

+2: anarchic initiate, soulbow
+1: illumine soul, ectopic adept, zerth cenbite, flayerspawn psychic
0: storm disciple
-2: ebon saint

I am still undecided on flayerspawn psychic. The 4 ML lose really hurts a psion but you gain a mind blast that is freely augmentable, 3 free feats, the chance to eat brains. I have played with a FSP and he did crazy things (and become Illisencse) but I cannot consider him an average user. Also many things are immune to mind blast.

Anarchic initiate is truly the rolls Royce of psions and wilder. Full progression for ML, and psion can gain wild surge!!!! Overchannel is nice and all but surge pays for all the augmentaion costs as well.  For a psion the cost of going 10 lvls in this class is just 2 bonus feats (any self respecting psion would have overchannel). Wilder gets to be wild even more. We need more PrC like this.

Ebon saint is complete trash.  If the levels of ES's dire strike stacked with lurk augments then this would be okay, but they don't so you end up being screwed on lurk augments AND ML, and only one 1d6 for SA completes it's epic fail.

Illumine soul gives nothing but benefits to a soulknife, but if in an undead heavy world this build could very potent.

Soulbow; what soulknife shouldve been

Zerth cenobite: for psi race monks, advance most monk abilities and gain extra actions, gain time skip punch this is awesome
Any thoughts?

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2009, 01:05:52 AM »
Stormwrack and Sandstorm, 1st draft (by yours truely this time)...

Up Two
Legendary Captain (if only for its association with Leadership)


Up One
Ashworm Dragoon (awesome for the flavour if nothing else)
Leviathan Hunter (strong trophy mechanic, solid class in general)
Sand Shaper (free metamagic, a bunch of bonus spells, and free resurrection make this viable for sorcs; wizard entry fairs worse)
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (for Ranger/Paladin type gishes)
Scorpion Heritor (bonus feats, full sneak attack, and an extra natural attack FTW)
Walker in the Waste (mostly for granting an LA+4 template for only two lost caster levels; rest is mediocre though, I could see this as an "equal")


Equal
Knight of the Pearl (interesting gains, but loses smite and mount progression)
Lord of Tides (entirely functional for clerics, less so for druids)



Down One
Scarlet Corsair (doesn't seem worth the lack of SA/skills, though I see abuse of that capstone...)
Sea Witch (doesn't seem worse the lost caster levels)
Stormcaster (underwhelming


Down Two
Wavekeeper (I can't imagine what druid would ever take this)

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2009, 11:59:24 AM »
Legendary captain seems to blow hard chunks. The Leadership bonus is "to attract followers" not cohorts. It gets pansy healing, an extra damage die (yay?), some speed, and a bluff check... It should be +0 at best assuming your making Pirates of the Carribean into D&D or something [hmmm, sounds like fun...]

And Walker in the ways is soooo ridiculously awesome. Its cited right after Planar Shepard for WotC getting sloppy on PrC imbalance. After all what DM wants uber lich (for free!) cleric PCs at level 13?? And they still end up with CL18.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2009, 02:37:45 PM »
Legendary captain seems to blow hard chunks. The Leadership bonus is "to attract followers" not cohorts. It gets pansy healing, an extra damage die (yay?), some speed, and a bluff check... It should be +0 at best assuming your making Pirates of the Carribean into D&D or something [hmmm, sounds like fun...]

And Walker in the ways is soooo ridiculously awesome. Its cited right after Planar Shepard for WotC getting sloppy on PrC imbalance. After all what DM wants uber lich (for free!) cleric PCs at level 13?? And they still end up with CL18.
Well, Legendary Captain seems tailored for ship-to-ship combat, and from my reading it does that well enough.  Certainly not recommended for a dry-land campaign, or one where "ship-to-ship combat" revolves around who can cast Fireball first.  But the feint-like power is far easier to pull off than Feint, and looks strong enough to swing the course of a battle.  And a massive pile of extra minions is always good in any setting.

Walker in the Waste.... I'd be more generous if the rest of the class looked like something worth taking, but it really doesn't to my eye.  Dread Necro does the same thing but with better class features and no lost casting (albeit at a higher level), and that's a base class.  Anyone else have feedback here?

Negative Zero

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2009, 09:34:30 PM »
Yeah, but you can be a Cleric Walker in the Waste.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2009, 10:56:37 PM »
Does the ghost savage progression count as a prestige class?

It's about four types of awesome.  Especially with LA buyoff.

Once you hit 15 hit dice, you can't be killed.  Most effects that ought to permanently kill you don't, because Rejuvenation isn't a spell and isn't listed in the default text.
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