Author Topic: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs  (Read 76952 times)

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Zarothar

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2009, 06:43:31 PM »
Spinemeld Warrior: We all know how often a TWF class ends in tiers. No bonus damage, forcefeeds you flavor, you get gimpy meldshaping... The saving grace is the rend ability, and that's a [iece of shit too. Not to mention that it writes like a class made so that you can add something cool to an existing character, but it requires a race that was introduced IN THIS BOOK. -2 tiers, for anyone.

I agree with all your other ratings, except for this one. -2 tiers? Not a chance.

I mean, straight out the gate, look at the requirements. Skarn is NOT a bad race for a melee combatant, and the PrC is basically a free entry one. All you need is a single Incarnum feat to get a point of essentia, and you're laughing.

The class abilities are not phenomenal, but they're solid. -2 tiers is completely unfair, as it does nothing to actively harm you. For Tier 4 and above classes, it's not really an upgrade (+0 tier, in my opinion). For Tier 5 (Fighter, Monk, Swashbuckler, Paladin), however, it's a certain +1 tier.

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Witchborn Binder: Forcefed flavor. In theory it shuts down spellcasters... right. -1 tier, not worth it. The capstone can be easily broken, the concentration check is nothing, and polymorph's been around for a while now, mkay, WotC? Word of Abrogation is basically an at-will counterspell, but you lose meldshaper levels, making the dispel check hard, and the class as a whole is utterly useless against anything that doesn't have SLAs. IF you just go to 6th level in the class, maybe you can make an effective counterspeller, but the rest of your usefulness will suffer, and it has shit for range, meaning a caster will figure out that they can just move 60 feet away.

I'd almost say -2 tiers. It's pretty bad.

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2009, 06:48:48 PM »
While I would agree that flayerspawn psychic is prolly 0 I would have to say that I disagree with some of Zarothar's assuptions. First, you get 3 feats from 10 levels of this PrC, not 2, also these feats are heritage feats not psionic so you cannot select them as bonus feats as a psion. You would have use character feats to get them which makes getting extration very difficult. Second, I was under the impression that you compare the entry class to the multiclassed and see if there is an I
improvement, not how it compared to higher tier base classes (since we are not comparing base classes).

About anarchic initiate, same thing, the big 5 have nothing to do with conversation even mentioning them betrays the point of this debate. How does a psion 20 compare to psion10/AI10?  Assuming the psion uses research to get must have powers and psychic reformation to get must have feats. The multiclassed is clearly on top and wild surge effectivily increses points and MLs, I won't even mention the infinite point loop a psion can have with bestow power, earth power and surge. Want to nova every encounter as a psion?  Now you can.

Ebon saint loses 2 MLs not one. The capstone for ebon saint is basically an upgraded cloud mind, very underwhelming when you could get it as a lurk.  Only benefit you have is they don't remember they saw you.  Of course, good skills in hide and/or disguise do the same thing.

Storm diciple sucks because you will lose an aura to stack. A divine mind 10 would have 2 auras up at the same time while a DM5/SD5 would only have one. A clear lose.

Ectopic adept is only bad if you compare it to pre-errata AC. But to judge this class on a rule that is no longer in effect is just not fair. Even f you compare this to the constructer on Mind's eye website, this one is a bit better because it has less feat requirement, gets 2 construct in only 5 levels and free ectoptic forms.

  

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2009, 07:09:57 PM »
A lots questions on master of masks. I used spelltheif because it had the most to gain from this PrC while not losing any SA. Lose of spells is made up for by wider selection of spells to fill a varerity of functions.

I could see zerth cenobite as high +1 but I disagree that psionic fist is better. PF only has better powers going for it while ZC gets free turns, rerolls and temporal flinch punch. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 07:22:17 PM by Samb »

Zarothar

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2009, 09:56:27 PM »
While I would agree that flayerspawn psychic is prolly 0 I would have to say that I disagree with some of Zarothar's assuptions. First, you get 3 feats from 10 levels of this PrC, not 2, also these feats are heritage feats not psionic so you cannot select them as bonus feats as a psion. You would have use character feats to get them which makes getting extration very difficult. Second, I was under the impression that you compare the entry class to the multiclassed and see if there is an I
improvement, not how it compared to higher tier base classes (since we are not comparing base classes).

Yes, I know you get three feats. However, unless you want to suffer -4 ML (and manifester level is VERY important for augmentation), you need to spend a feat on Practised Manifester. To me, that means that you only get two bonus feats. If you sacrifice your ML, you're making the Flayerspawn Psychic even WORSE.

Complete Psi, page 61: "Illithid heritage feats are considered psionic feats."
Psions can take any psionic feat as a bonus feat. Happily, so can Psychic Warriors; in fact, if you want to be eating brains, you really should have some front line ability. It's easy to miss, so I don't blame you. Kinda sad that even that tiny niche of Illithid Heritage-grubbing that the Flayerspawn Psychic potentially had is actually a lie.

I'm under the impression that you consider the initial position of the class (in the case of Psion, Tier 2). Only if the PrC can boost you up a tier should it be considered +1. Maybe I misunderstood the tier system Zeal was going for...

Besides which, the Flayerspawn Psychic is a clear downgrade on the Psion. Even by your conceptualisation of the tier system, it's a pretty safe bet for -1 tier (maybe -2). Psion 20 does it better. Way better.

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About anarchic initiate, same thing, the big 5 have nothing to do with conversation even mentioning them betrays the point of this debate. How does a psion 20 compare to psion10/AI10?  Assuming the psion uses research to get must have powers and psychic reformation to get must have feats. The multiclassed is clearly on top and wild surge effectivily increses points and MLs, I won't even mention the infinite point loop a psion can have with bestow power, earth power and surge. Want to nova every encounter as a psion?  Now you can.

Again, I'm under a different impression of the tier system than you. Besides, I agree that there is the potential for a +2 tier ranking, I'm just not completely convinced of it.

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Ebon saint loses 2 MLs not one. The capstone for ebon saint is basically an upgraded cloud mind, very underwhelming when you could get it as a lurk.  Only benefit you have is they don't remember they saw you.  Of course, good skills in hide and/or disguise do the same thing.

Check again. It's only 1 ML.

Besides, don't look at just the capstone. The 3rd level augment, Mind Interrogation, means that you can get information from almost anyone. Immunity to mind-affecting abilities? No problem, all it requires is a successful Dire Strike. Immunity to Sneak Attack isn't a big deal either, as there are ways to sneak attack just about anything. Think about what you can do with that in a stealth/spy campaign - nobody can hide things from you.

The 4th level augment, Steal Form. Well, that's basically a weird way of getting Alter Self. Again, you can sneak attack undead/constructs through various means, so your Dire Strike should be able to pick up just about anyone. Add on Metamorphic Transfer, and you can steal abilities from all sorts of people.

The 2nd level augment, Thought Theft, has a decent DC and, importantly, a favourable scaling DC augment. Consider that the Read Thoughts power does not have a scaling DC, and you've got yet another niche where the Ebon Saint can potentially come out ahead. It's a limited version of Read Thoughts, but a valuable one nonetheless.

I agree that Disappear from Mind is unspectacular, but it does have uses. A mediocre capstone doesn't render the rest of the class useless, however. I should note that you also get the ability to use three dire augments at once at 5th level, so Disappear From Mind isn't the only feature that you get at that level.

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Storm diciple sucks because you will lose an aura to stack. A divine mind 10 would have 2 auras up at the same time while a DM5/SD5 would only have one. A clear lose.

It's a loss for a Divine Mind, yes, but it's +0 for a Fighter x/Ardent 1. All you need is a single level of Ardent to pick up a mantle, and you're in the class. The class features are absolutely lame, even compared to Fighter bonus feats, but I think that three extra levels of manifesting make up for that to an extent. Divine Mind should be avoided in the first place, frankly.

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Ectopic adept is only bad if you compare it to pre-errata AC. But to judge this class on a rule that is no longer in effect is just not fair. Even f you compare this to the constructer on Mind's eye website, this one is a bit better because it has less feat requirement, gets 2 construct in only 5 levels and free ectoptic forms

Complete Psi isn't official errata, frankly. The book itself is in dire need of some errata...

But, okay, say that we are using that crappy errata. Ectopic Adept is +0. It's really not good enough to be considered an upgrade.

Comparing it to the Constructor? Umm... No, that class beats the pants off the Ectopic Adept even with errata.

Let's break it down:
Entry - Advantage: Constructor. No useless feats.
Skills - Advantage: Constructor. Two extra skill points/level helps with all those little crafting skills that Shapers love to have. Oh, yeah, and you have to have almost full ranks in Craft: Sculpting at all times to get any benefit out of the Ectopic Adept, while the Constructor can pick and choose which skills it wants to boost.
Manifester Level - Advantage: Ectopic Adept. However, both classes do get 9th level powers.
Construct Enhancement - Advantage: Constructor. More menu options and two extra menu selections per day beat the pants off the restrictive Ectopic Form feats. Resilient Construct is underwhelming compared to extra menu selections.
Construct Manifesting Speed - Advantage: Constructor. Permanent quickened (swift action) construction is the capstone. The Ectopic Adept can only do that five times a day, and that's as a standard action.
Construct Numbers - Advantage: Constructor. Okay, for the sake of argument, let's use that nerfed AC. The Constructor has a good old laugh and manifests extra ACs for 2 extra pp each. Silly errata, it can't stop him! The Ectopic Adept manifests an entire second instance of AC once a day, and then goes into the fetal position and weeps.
Construct Utility - Advantage: Constructor. Utility Construct is amazing.
Construct Persistence - Advantage: Constructor. 1 min/level ACs by default. Thank you very much!
Extras - Advantage: Constructor. The situational stuff like Combat Construction and Ecto Protection.

So... Uh. Yeah. The Ectopic Adept is a 5 level PrC, yes, so of course it's going to have less. But it doesn't do ANYTHING better than the Constructor, with the exception of losing one less ML.

Opportunity cost comes into the equation, perhaps? Naw. Okay, say that the Ectopic Adept takes her remaining levels in AI. The Constructor does the same.

Psion 5/Ectopic Adept 5/AI 10
vs.
Psion 5/AI 1/Constructor 10/AI + 2/X 2 (AI +2? Levels 4 and 5 don't do much, and would technically increase the chance of enervation if you're going by RAI and not RAW.)

Nah, AI doesn't do enough to salvage it. It's a frontloaded class anyway, as the best ability is at Level 1 and Levels 2 and 3 are pretty damn respectable. The Constructor is still WAY better at Astral Constructs than the Ectopic Adept could ever hope to be. End of story.


Zerth Cenobite vs. Psionic Fist - "Only" better powers? I dunno, mate. They get more powers, more PP/day, and higher level powers to boot. A couple psionic feats, too. The Zerth Cenobite is a bit crippled by the fact that they can do really cool stuff, but only once a day each. Extra full action 1/day, Backslip 2/day, Timeless Step 1/day, Precognition 2/day, Temporal Strike 1/day, Precognitive Surge 1/day, Timeless Body 1/day. These abilities are powerful, yes, but they suffer from being usable so rarely. It's a Psionic Fist with no bonus feats and less powers that gets a bunch of cool time abilities instead. I'd say they're fairly balanced against each other, with the edge depending on how well you use your powers and what feats you pick. Both are solid +1 tier, but not +2.

Master of Masks - Spellthief entry, eh? What do you do to get around the fact that you can't... well, steal spells? It doesn't advance spell stealing, which is the whole shtick of a Spellthief.

woodenbandman

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #104 on: March 29, 2009, 11:01:09 PM »
Spinemeld Warrior: We all know how often a TWF class ends in tiers. No bonus damage, forcefeeds you flavor, you get gimpy meldshaping... The saving grace is the rend ability, and that's a [iece of shit too. Not to mention that it writes like a class made so that you can add something cool to an existing character, but it requires a race that was introduced IN THIS BOOK. -2 tiers, for anyone.

I agree with all your other ratings, except for this one. -2 tiers? Not a chance.

I mean, straight out the gate, look at the requirements. Skarn is NOT a bad race for a melee combatant, and the PrC is basically a free entry one. All you need is a single Incarnum feat to get a point of essentia, and you're laughing.

The class abilities are not phenomenal, but they're solid. -2 tiers is completely unfair, as it does nothing to actively harm you. For Tier 4 and above classes, it's not really an upgrade (+0 tier, in my opinion). For Tier 5 (Fighter, Monk, Swashbuckler, Paladin), however, it's a certain +1 tier.


True, true... I was thinking in terms of Incarnum class entry for this one. I guess it could be one of the split up ones.

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #105 on: March 29, 2009, 11:46:47 PM »

-2?  :twitch Are you kidding? It's a full-casting PrC; those are, almost by default, a minimum of +0 tier. The spells you learn are a bit lacklustre, but they're freebies for a Sorcerer. +1 tier for Sorcerers, +0 tier for Wizards?

Agree. Maybe I'm used to the power other PrCs grant like Dwomerkeeper thet such sharp contrast make me belittle this class. my bad.

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Naw, it's +1 territory (in my opinion). The Primeval Form ability is better than you think; the physical scores (-10) of the form are added to the Primeval's ability scores. So, if you chose the Dire Lion form, you'd be looking at +14 Strength, +4 Dex, and +6 Con. Pardon me, but I think that's better than Rage. Stacks with it, too. ;)

How the hell did that slip from me? Very good call.


I didn't rate those cleric PrCs because I didn't get to play them when I was in a short icy campaign.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #106 on: March 29, 2009, 11:53:31 PM »
Updating the lists now.  Here's the changes going in...

Books
+ Complete Psionic (thank you, Samb!)
+ Frostburn (thank you, tusk!)
+ Magic of Incarnum (thank you, woodenbandman!)
+ Races of the Wild (thank you, CthulhuM and Sirek Inta!)
+ Sandstorm
+ Shadow Magic (thank you, jameswilliamogle!)
+ Stormwrack


Up Two
- Spellwarp Sniper
+ Anarchic Initiate
+ Legendary Captain
+ Necrocarnate (unless your DM limits what you can draw essentia from)
+ Thrallherd
+ Walker in the Waste


Up One
? Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)
- Thrallherd
- Warpriest
+ Arcane Heirophant
+ Ashworm Dragoon
+ Champion of Corellon Larethian
+ Disciple of Thrym
+ Frost Mage (Sorc entry)
+ Illumine Soul
+ Ironsoul Forgemaster
+ Leviathan Hunter
+ Mage of the Arcane Order
+ Master of Shadow
+ Noctumancer
+ Primeval
+ Rimefire Witch
+ Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)
+ Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
+ Scorpion Heritor
+ Skypledged
+ Spellwarp Sniper
+ Umbral Disciple
+ Whisperknife
+ Wildrunner
+ Winterhaunt of Iborighu
+ Zerth Cenobite


Equal
- Hospitaler
- Mage of the Arcane Order
+ Child of the Night
+ Cloud Ancorite
+ Ectopic Adept (but only if your DM uses CPsi nerfs already)
+ Flayerspawn Psychic
+ Frost Mage (Wizard entry)
+ Frost Rager
+ Knight of Iron Glacier
+ Knight of the Pearl
+ Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)
+ Sapphire Hierarch
+ Shadowblade
+ Shadowsmith
+ Soulcaster
+ Stormsinger
+ Totem Rager
+ Master of Masks (general entry)
+ Ruathar
+ Stormcaster
+ Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)
+ Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)
+ Unseen Seer

Down One
+ Cryokineticist
+ Ebon Saint
+ Hospitaler
+ Incandescent Champion
+ Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)
+ Luckstealer
+ Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry)
+ Scarlet Corsair (except with capstone abuse)
+ Sea Witch
+ Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)
+ Warpriest


Down Two
+ Incarnum Blade
+ Spinemeld Warrior
+ Wavekeeper
+ Witchborn Binder



Zarothar - Samb's right about the Tier system.  Check on the first post: the rankings are not literal.  You can't really compare things in one tier with a good PrC to things in a different tier with a bad PrC.  "Up One" is for when they give a solid upgrade over the base class; "Up Two" is when the upgrade becomes shockingly good.  If Anarchic Initiate is a significant boost even compared to "Up One" PrCs, then it deserves the top ranking.  That said, I haven't actually looked at it myself that closely, it just sounds epic from what I'm hearing.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 12:33:32 AM by sonofzeal »

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #107 on: March 30, 2009, 12:00:34 AM »
I'll give this a go, and I will review Magic of Incarnum. Also tome of Magic (binder PrC's only).

Soulcaster: +0. You get a bonus to your DCs when it matters, you have a few good defensive soulmelds (and the illusion booster is killer), but you lose 2 caster levels. And the capstone is okay if you really need some essentia. Requires a crap feat to enter.


Actually, if you spend an extra feat (Open Least Chakra) you can enter this with Incarnate 1/Wizard5.  The feat is pretty meh, but it's not useless, like some entry feats i can think of *cough* favored of the companions *cough*

Wait, how is Spellwarp sniper a plus 2?
Do we have a link to the original tiers thread?  I need to recheck the tiers for the meldshaper classes.

sonofzeal

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #108 on: March 30, 2009, 12:25:57 AM »
I'll give this a go, and I will review Magic of Incarnum. Also tome of Magic (binder PrC's only).

Soulcaster: +0. You get a bonus to your DCs when it matters, you have a few good defensive soulmelds (and the illusion booster is killer), but you lose 2 caster levels. And the capstone is okay if you really need some essentia. Requires a crap feat to enter.


Actually, if you spend an extra feat (Open Least Chakra) you can enter this with Incarnate 1/Wizard5.  The feat is pretty meh, but it's not useless, like some entry feats i can think of *cough* favored of the companions *cough*

Wait, how is Spellwarp sniper a plus 2?
Do we have a link to the original tiers thread?  I need to recheck the tiers for the meldshaper classes.
I'll keep Soulcaster where it is.  I'm aware that a lot of these can have clever entries, but while dip+feat definitely improves it over bigger-dip, that's more along the lines of the individual's optimizing skills, and anything can go up or down with the right skills.

Spellwarp Sniper got a high spot because it turns Ref saves into Touch Attacks, which is a huge advantage... but is getting downgraded a step because there really aren't that many Spellwarpable Ref save spells that do more than just direct damage.

Remember that the PrC classes are not literal.  If a Totemist is Tier 3 and takes a +1 PrC, that doesn't mean he's now on par with a Psion in Tier 2.  It just means he's now more effective than most pure Totemists and might move up or down within his Tier, say from a weak 3 to a strong 3, but might also move from a strong 3 to a weak 2, depending on exactly how good you think the class was already and how good you are at optimizing.  The rankings are not literal.  They just show you where to start looking if you want something strong, or what to consider if you're looking for a challenge.

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2009, 02:14:23 AM »
Yes, I know you get three feats. However, unless you want to suffer -4 ML (and manifester level is VERY important for augmentation), you need to spend a feat on Practised Manifester. To me, that means that you only get two bonus feats. If you sacrifice your ML, you're making the Flayerspawn Psychic even WORSE.

Complete Psi, page 61: "Illithid heritage feats are considered psionic feats."
Psions can take any psionic feat as a bonus feat. Happily, so can Psychic Warriors; in fact, if you want to be eating brains, you really should have some front line ability. It's easy to miss, so I don't blame you. Kinda sad that even that tiny niche of Illithid Heritage-grubbing that the Flayerspawn Psychic potentially had is actually a lie.

I'm under the impression that you consider the initial position of the class (in the case of Psion, Tier 2). Only if the PrC can boost you up a tier should it be considered +1. Maybe I misunderstood the tier system Zeal was going for...
ahh that really sucks that they count as psionic feats, wheres the flavor?  Well you get 3 feats because illithid blast is a feat that you get for free at level 1 of the PrC.  I have seen a FSP in action and he did really amazing things.  The offense in this PrC leaves little question, but he also qualified as a illithid savant so I hardly consider him typical.  This PrC i was on the fence about, but I would say you have convinced me that it is 0.
Quote
Check again. It's only 1 ML.

Besides, don't look at just the capstone. The 3rd level augment, Mind Interrogation, means that you can get information from almost anyone. Immunity to mind-affecting abilities? No problem, all it requires is a successful Dire Strike. Immunity to Sneak Attack isn't a big deal either, as there are ways to sneak attack just about anything. Think about what you can do with that in a stealth/spy campaign - nobody can hide things from you.

The 4th level augment, Steal Form. Well, that's basically a weird way of getting Alter Self. Again, you can sneak attack undead/constructs through various means, so your Dire Strike should be able to pick up just about anyone. Add on Metamorphic Transfer, and you can steal abilities from all sorts of people.

The 2nd level augment, Thought Theft, has a decent DC and, importantly, a favourable scaling DC augment. Consider that the Read Thoughts power does not have a scaling DC, and you've got yet another niche where the Ebon Saint can potentially come out ahead. It's a limited version of Read Thoughts, but a valuable one nonetheless.

I agree that Disappear from Mind is unspectacular, but it does have uses. A mediocre capstone doesn't render the rest of the class useless, however. I should note that you also get the ability to use three dire augments at once at 5th level, so Disappear From Mind isn't the only feature that you get at that level.
Ok i can see where you are coming from, that trick with metamorphic transfer is neat too but not stacking with Lurk really hurts.  If you wanted to be a spy psibond agent is still better.  I really wanted this PrC to be good but I guess it might not be -2 bad.  Still bad.


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It's a loss for a Divine Mind, yes, but it's +0 for a Fighter x/Ardent 1. All you need is a single level of Ardent to pick up a mantle, and you're in the class. The class features are absolutely lame, even compared to Fighter bonus feats, but I think that three extra levels of manifesting make up for that to an extent. Divine Mind should be avoided in the first place, frankly.
Divine mind is a bad class to begin with and this acually makes it worse.  Really a feat to itself.  A psiwarrior with mantled variant could also take this but this would be an even bigger lose.

Ok you have completely convinced me on ectopic adept and constructor.  But the biggest advantage EA has over constructor is that EA is in print while many DMs don't consider web PrCs canon.

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Zerth Cenobite vs. Psionic Fist - "Only" better powers? I dunno, mate. They get more powers, more PP/day, and higher level powers to boot. A couple psionic feats, too. The Zerth Cenobite is a bit crippled by the fact that they can do really cool stuff, but only once a day each. Extra full action 1/day, Backslip 2/day, Timeless Step 1/day, Precognition 2/day, Temporal Strike 1/day, Precognitive Surge 1/day, Timeless Body 1/day. These abilities are powerful, yes, but they suffer from being usable so rarely. It's a Psionic Fist with no bonus feats and less powers that gets a bunch of cool time abilities instead. I'd say they're fairly balanced against each other, with the edge depending on how well you use your powers and what feats you pick. Both are solid +1 tier, but not +2.
i'll say they are both even at +1

Zeal, might as well put contructor as +1 since Zarothar was kind enough to break it down for us.

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2009, 03:26:34 AM »
Primeval: Yeah, you get a great stat boost, but as mentioned before you have to sink three feats which don't help you no matter what your base entry class. Wasting the feats takes you down, while the stat boosts bring you back up to +0. Stacking the stat boosts with Bear Warrior could be fun though.


Here's my take on Complete Mage (mostly theoretical from my viewpoint)
Abjurant Champion: +1, full casting and full BAB, easy prereqs, nice abilities, but nothing game breaking
Eldritch Disciple: +0, as with any dual progression class, you give up a little of the main classes for some new abilities
Eldritch Theurge: +0, as above
Enlightened Spirit: +0 in a very specific campaign, but for the most part I say -1 since you lose versatility and you really have nowhere to go when you finish the class
Holy Scourge: +0 or a low +1, lose a caster level, gain a very narrow set of abilities
Lyric Thaumaturge: +1, easy entry, gain better casting, lose almost nothing that can't be replicated with spells anyways
Master Specialist: +1, easy entry, full casting, gain new goodies
Nightmare Spinner: +1, easy entry, lose one CL but you gain bonus slots which almost immediately makes up for it, plus some new goodies
Ultimate Magus: +0 or +1 with tricks to maintain high casting progression,
Unseen Seer: +1, it's a full caster with nice abilities that complement your entry because it's clearly designed for a skill/arcane user, and the CL loss on the noncaster base is moot since you took PM to make up for it already
Wild Soul: +1, lose one CL, but gain some spell versatility and some extra summons
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 03:28:28 AM by Surreal »
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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #111 on: March 30, 2009, 04:04:34 AM »
OK, here's my attempt at Libris Mortis:

Summary:
Death's Chosen [+0 cohort; -1 PC] (awkward RP requirements yet nice 1lvl dip for melee-oriented cohorts)
Dirgesinger [-2] (a BARD-only PrC w/o spellcasting advancement)
Master of Radiance [-1] (class abilities that often don't make up for that CL loss)
Master of Shrounds [+1 w/ accelerated entry; -1 for normal entry and ECL above 14] (class abilities don't scale well at higher levels)
Pale Master [+0 sorcerer; +1 wizard etc; +2 DN entry] (works well with DN thematically and mechanically; having to choose 2 spells may not suit a sorcerer's best interest yet a good PrC overall nevertheless)
Sacred Purifier [-1] (just doesn't justify 4/5 spellcasting)
True Necromancer [-2 intended entry; +0 via PA] (even worse than MT in terms of requirements but if you like doublies then it's on par with MT; and no, no Ur-priest entry either (domain requirement))


Death's Chosen [+1 if cohort, -1 if PC due to very awkward RP requirement]
Requirements: Easy to qualify mechanically (BAB +5, some 1~2 points in 2 skills) but has an RP requirement and the entire ability of this class revolves around that RP requirement.
So it's a 3-level long full-BAB PrC that gives you some nice (however negligible) abilities including the one that lets him/her/it to be immune to the undead master's AoE abilities. I can see how it could be used to cast Antimagic Field and exempt the cohort to be immune to its effect- making it quite viable if used correctly. Just 1-level dip would be quite a nice addition to a melee cohort build.

Dirgesinger [-2]
Requirements: Not hard to qualify (uses up a feat though)
What have we got here? A bard-only PrC that give some additional uses for bardic music ability that does NOT advance spellcasting. Well it does give you an ability to animate a corpse (simply addes Undead type to it) with HD limit=character level. I think I'll do better with just playing a dread necromancer and fancy it a singer.

Master of Radiance [-1]
Requirements: Easy to qualify (druid entry), Difficult to qualify (cleric entry; 8 ranks in Knowledge (nature) for a class that doesn't exactly have much connection to neither Animal nor Plant domain)
It's a 5-level PrC that has 4/5 spellcasting advancement. While this class lists Turn Undead as one of its 1st-level abilities the text only says that it'll only stack with the existing TU progression (so not an alternative for Sacred Exorcist!). The most significant ability of this class is Radiant Aura that lasts 1 minute and you can use it 3/day- during which you can use Searing Light (lvl 2) and Sunbeam (lvl5; full-round action) at will. Personally think they're pretty lacklustre even in an undead-heavy campaign. Pun intended.

Master of Shrounds [+1 accelerated entry up until around ECL 12-ish; +0~-1 intended entry or starting near ECL 14]
Requirements: Hard to qualify (uses 2 feats that you may or may not want, you also need to wait till level 7 if you go pure cleric)
This is a 10-level PrC with 9/10 spellcasting. You get extra rebuking (which is always nice for a DMM cleric) and Summon Undead (Sp) ability summoning a number of incorporeal undead creatures. For those of you who ain't familiar with the accelerated entry into this class this class requires +5 Base Will Save as one of its prerequisites (other requirements can be met as low as 2nd-level w/ bonus feat). It means with only 2 levels of Cleric and 1 level of any class that has good Will Save you can qualify for it at level 4! So beginning at 5th level you're summoning a Shadow (CR 3) with all its create spawn ability intact and if your DM's as open-minded as mine you'll be able to wreck some havok much earlier than intended (level 8).
However all these nice boosts fade shortly after you hit your last level in this PrC as the incorporeal undeads don't have any special progression and with plenty of Ghost Touch weapons the spectres/shadows/whatever will quickly, very quickly become redundant.
(Oh and the reason why it's +1 not +2 is that it isn't exactly on par with Planar Shepherd or its ilks)

Pale Master [+0 for sorcerers (limited use spell requirements); +1 Wizards etc (CHA usually dump stat to pull of 10th-level ability) and +2 to Dread Necromancer entry]
Requirements: Not hard to qualify (burn 1 useless feat, need 2 spells that you may or may not want and negligible RP requirement)
10-lvl PrC w/ 9/10 casting progression; the 1st level's a dead level as stiff as the doorknob- but wait till level 2 and even level 9 or 10! Animate Dead as spell-like ability means no more need for those onyx, 9th-level free undead cohort is just so nice and one of the capstone abilities (Deathless Master's Touch) allows you to create limitless number of zombies under your full control. Of course you'll still need high enough CHA to really pull it off and has size limit but it's not that bad of a limitation really *cough* dread necromancer *cough*.

Sacred Purifier [-1]
Requirements: Easy to qualify (since Extra Turning's a good feat for every DMM-using clerics; if not, rather hard to qualify)
Libris Mortis (Libre Mortum?) must have something for screwing up spellcasting progressions. Oh yes this one's a 5-level PrC w/ 4/5 progression. Anyways, despite losing 1 CL, it doesn't really give you much of a benefit apart from those revolving around using your Turn attempts. Heck, as though we'll have enough TU uses left after our daily buffing! Even those abilities- greater turning (ONCE per day), +2d6 damage to undead creatures for 1 round by spending a turning attempt and AoE ability dealing 10d6 damage to nearby undead... with 2 TU uses.
That CL loss ain't worth it.

True Necromancer [-2; +0 if entry via Precocious Apprentice is allowed]
Requirements: Very hard to qualify (not even illumian trick works but Precocious Apprentice might work since it specifically calls for a spell)
So a doubly that advances only one side of spellcasting class for the first 2 levels. Riiiiiiight. It even requires Death domain which isn't exactly the brightest jewel in the crown. But then again, if you could go (using PA) Cleric 4/Wizard (or whatever) 1/TN 14/Mystic Theurge 1 then you'll have CL 18 for cleric and 15th-level spellcasting for your arcane side. Of course it'd still mean you'll be 1 spell level behind pure cleric but after level 19 it's really not that bad at all.
The rest of its abilities are some handy (yet duplicable) abilities and Create (Greater) Undead as spell-like ability that still requires you to provide the material components. What?
(I didn't give it +1 though since not many games start above 19th-level the point at which one can cast 9th-level divine spells)


I don't think I'll go into undead PrCs :)

« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 04:35:06 AM by Salt_Crow »

Akalsaris

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #112 on: March 30, 2009, 05:57:04 AM »
I think the true necromancer build you gave would end up with Cleric 17/Wiz 14, since there is another point mid-way where it doesn't advance both classes simultaneously. 

Ur-priest would actually work with a sorcerer 5 entry, using the CC domain access ACF for the Death domain, but you'd still need a way to get knowledges (religion, the planes) up to 8 ranks as a sorcerer, and even then the best you could do would be 9th level spells on the ur-priest side and 16th level sorcerer casting.

I still agree with your rankings for the PrCs though :)

Salt_Crow

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #113 on: March 30, 2009, 06:28:42 AM »
@Akalsaris

Good grief yet another split casting progression! that's just what TN needs more of! XD Still, 17/14 ain't too bad though :) (being a fan of Mystic Theurge & co.)

Anyways, with Education feat from ECS and plenty of Int (or being human) Sorcerer/Ur-priest/TN would be quite manageable indeed.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 06:30:17 AM by Salt_Crow »

Samb

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #114 on: March 30, 2009, 10:44:23 AM »
Adjurant champion unimpressive? With wraithstrike, polymorph, arcane strike and AC boosts this thing is a monster. What entry class did you use? Duskblade? If you compare it to a fighter8/transmuter8 a F4/transmuter2/AbjChamp10 destroys its entry class. Take a look at this build

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Transmu...haracter_Build)

I liked the part were he kills the aspect of Amodeus in one full round attack. Lulz

ReaderOfPosts

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2009, 11:00:41 AM »

Spellwarp Sniper got a high spot because it turns Ref saves into Touch Attacks, which is a huge advantage... but is getting downgraded a step because there really aren't that many Spellwarpable Ref save spells that do more than just direct damage.


The spellwarp sniper may only have on trick, but it does it well. All you need is one spell (frost breath, SpC) and you auto-daze a foe with a touch attack using a second level spell. Auto daze as a class ability is not bad at all, and certainly worth the three feats to get it without loosing a caster level.

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2009, 12:01:13 PM »
Here's a bite at Race of Destiny.

Chameleon: Nice class is nice. And versatile. +1.

Loredelver: 9/10 casting, 2 good saves, (greater)Arcane sight at will, spontaneously cast some utility spells. +0 for Wizards, +1 for everyone else.

Menacing Brute: Looks like a "scary" freegan. One thing stands out of this class: At 4th, you get +4 on confirming crits. Every time. I can see a (probably weak)+1 for Fighters.

Outcast Champion: Class for half-breeds(elf, ork, ogre) that is only good for 1 level dip. Logical entry seems to be Bard. Allies within 30 ft get a plus on will save equal to your class level. +0 as dip, -1 for more than 1 level.

Scar Enforcer: Overall lackluster class. Biggest shiny is Hide in Plain Sight. +0 for Rogue(its intended entry class), -1 for everything higher.

Shadow Sentinel: Illumian class. You get reserve point for your slightly inferior Weapon of Legacy(tm) to perform stuff mostly can be duplicated by magic of somekind. +0 for gishes.

Urban Soul: Street cred, yo. weak +1.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:37:37 PM by tusk »

Zombieboots

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #117 on: March 30, 2009, 01:00:18 PM »
Are we accepting non-source book classes?
From WotC web enhancement: The Swiftblade, Haste Personified
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

Standard, non-optimal entry is: Full BAB Class 1 / Wizard 5 or simply Elf 6th level Wiz or Sor.

Class includes: Only 6/10th Spell Casting, Full BAB, Two good saves, Built in Miss chance. The Cap stone(s) include extra standard action after a full attack, and semi to full Time Stop! Wow.
Free spring attack, Reflex & AC bonuses, and undispellable haste are icing.

I nomiate this Gish for a full +2, it's certainly at lest a +1 without a doubt.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:02:59 PM by Zombieboots »
Ah! Maddness. Thank you.[spoiler][/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #118 on: March 30, 2009, 01:31:58 PM »
Here I'm going over the ToM binder PrC's.


Anima Mage


+2. No question. Extremely easy dip entry, trivial prerequisites, full 10/10 casting AND soul binding, useful binder abilities, but the real killer is a BONUS ON INITIATIVE CHECKS and FREE METAMAGIC. FREE PERSISTENT WHATEVER. Just a 5 level dip would be excellent for anyone!. Take all 10 levels on this.

Note that the capstone allows you to cast ANY spell as an immediate action, rather like the, uh, Sanctified one of boccob, I think it was. You can cast something nasty like Control Weather as an immediate action, or genesis, or whatever. It's great. There is literally no class that can top this besides the Incantatrix, and the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil makes a strong showing. Great, great class.


Knight of the Sacred Seal


I love this class. Over a standard binder, it gains HD and BAB, loses a bit of Will save, gets full soul binding, and has easy-cheezy prerequisites. You get a bunch of stuff, including weapon and armor proficiencies, a bunch of extra abilities which are all useful, as well as the ability to share them with your allies. Also, you can, as a free action, recover a 1/5 rounds power. That is killer. Not to mention that the capstone grants you the Outsider type, which is huge. Make sure you choose which vestige you specialize in, it's important. Overall, gain much, lose little... +1 tier. Zycerill bumps binder another tier, by the way.


Scion of Dantalion


Lemme say right now: There's no real reason NOT to take this class. Your abilities are very good, you get extra ability to read thoughts, you get a blinding cone attack, improved teleportation, read multiple thoughts, and all you lose is a few of those mind vestige protection and pact augmentation abilities.

This is a very good class. Also, note that, technically, Swift Awe of Dantalion and Awe of Dantalion are 2 different abilities, each one bearing the 1/5 round designation. I'd say this class gives you a +1, because dantalion's a pretty useful vestige in general, and you lose very little over a straight binder for NOT binding Dantalion.


Tenebrous Apostate


Now: You get to be bound to Tenebrous all day. You lucky bastard! No, really, you're a lucky bastard. I always use Tenebrous, along with Chupoclops, for maneuverability supreme. The second level ability is immunity to mindless undead. Nice. You can power your devotion feats for half price, all day. Travel Devotion AND Flicker? Hells yeah! You get more abilities, such as Umbral Body, which I won't read out of extreme pride, but I'm assuming it's at least decent. Lame capstone, but the real coolness is that it advances a divine class of your choice, which, as I said, works very well with the divine adaptation of Anima Mage. Also, you technically qualify for Turn Undead requiring classes since you cannot lose your turn undead ability.

This class is great for a necromancy focused cleric, as well as anyone who loves their Devotion feats. However, you lose a caster level, and it's got stiff prerequisites without Anima Mage (and also has little impact without said class.) +0 tiers, provided you get the goodness of Anima Mage anyway. Otherwise, -1, you lose 9th level spells, unless of course you want to combine this with an Ur-Priest entry, in which case it gets a +1. This one's all over the map.


Witch Slayer


Ah, the Witch Slayer. Every family has one. The guy who doesn't want to hang with the rest of the family.

Well, really, this class isn't so bad. Mettle as a 2 level dip (trumped in dipability by Pious Templar, but this also requires no feats. Supernatural for some reason). Good Fort and Will saves. Slippery Mind. 5 smites per day, which isn't bad if you combine it with a power attack.

Momentary Disjunction is AWESOME. A swift action AMF that is TARGETED, so your allies lose nothing by engaging the brute, with a DC 20 + CHA modifier! Pump this, with ability focus, sudden ability focus... ANYTHING. Great capstone, excellent for a Paladin or a Fighter or something like that, +1 tier to that shit. Well, really, it should be a weak +2, because it gives such a great capstone as well as awesome mental defenses for those who sorely need them. Not up to the power of, say, a Psychic Warrior, but an extremely viable class option for any fighting type, paladin especially.

tusk

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Re: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs
« Reply #119 on: March 30, 2009, 01:35:00 PM »
Dun-dun-dun!!Planar Handbook!!11oneoneone :lol :lol

Defiant: ......How do they manage to churn out this kind of atrocity? It does not advance casting of any kind. If you are a Cleric, you actually LOSE your casting, up to NINE levels. If you are not a caster, therefore you NEED Divine being cast on you, and you get resistance on them. This class is an officially no-go zone for anyone not wish to gimp their character.-OVER9000!!! (Seriously)

Doomguard: Improved Sunder as prerequisite(ewww), 5/10 casting of any kind, smite-lite, 3 bonus feats, like a Black guard, except bent on destroying stuff(and magic), +0 on Tier 4. -1 on anything higher.

Fatemaker: Seems intended for Bard. Extremely short list of Cha-based casting, get 3 point of Charisma, once per day(eventually twice), add class level to damage, to hit, or skill check. Lame capstone. Good for dip. +1.

Visionary Seeker: Easy, easy entry. 5/10 casting. Class level to Divination spells' CL. Duplicate ANY spell with expense 1/day(eventually 2/day). +0 for 1(maybe 2) level dip to Diviner. -1 for longer.

Ardent Dilettant: Seems intended for bard, (maybe) factotum. Entry goes steeper as you gain level. Another version of Bardic Knowledge. Enthall 1/day. 3 bonus feats. Once per day, Duplicate spell subject to. Nice capstone. +1.

Cipher Adept: 3 entry feat. Instinct mobile beat stick. +0.

Chaotician: Rather easy entry. 50% miss chance lasts class level rounds. Sound-based AMF with 10 ft radius. 1/day reroll, self or others. +1 for beat-sticks.

Astral Dancer: For monks. 3 entry feats. Overall unimpressive. +0.

Elemental Warrior: Element based smite-like. Weak +1.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 01:13:17 AM by tusk »