Optimization by the numbers.

[Lycanthromancer]

This is true, but apparently he's been suspended and thus literally cannot defend himself? If I understand correctly.

Besides, the point is that you should respond to him when he does that, and only when he does that. He hasn't in this thread, so don't bring it up. Don't drag baggage from other threads in. If you have a problem with him that you need to address, and it doesn't really fit in another thread, START ONE. It's not that hard.

Sure, maybe he's too much of an ass to back down, but that doesn't make you any less of an ass if you don't either. If you think he's a dick, then don't sink to his level. Don't destroy threads because you're too prideful to move your discussion somewhere appropriate.

I can't repeat this enough (and yes, I did steal the line from somewhere else, doesn't make it any less applicable); it doesn't matter how right you are. If you're a giant annoying douchebag about it, you're still a giant annoying douchebag. Shut up and quit making your side look bad.

And all of this is quite true. Thanks for posting it.

[RelentlessImp]

Oh, I missed that, then. In that case, consider my judgment of Sunic's character revoked, and my objection revised to "Why remind him?"

Don't mind Kanya. She's just been trollbaiting and flaming people from her very first post here without contributing much overall.

From what's left of that thread, it looks like Sunic ragequitted too early. There were occasional bursts of people being dicks for no good reason, but he started them as often as not, and there seemed to be an actual discussion going on with, y'know arguments. That said, there appear to be deletions that I'm missing, so I'm not really getting a complete picture; I'll give Sunic the benefit of the doubt, here, and assume somebody started dragging their issues from another thread into that one. I wouldn't put it past some of the posters here, and while Sunic isn't one of the ones immune to that particular form of jackassery, I doubt he'd start something like this and then delete his own material. And he's not the sort to blatantly lie (I saw no warning, so I assume it was deleted as part of a larger post that needed to go), either, even if I think he's mistaken in a lot of mechanics areas.

Point being, sounds like people were dragging baggage into a thread where it didn't belong and was genuinely useful (from what I recall of the OP when it was there), because they have a grudge against Sunic. I mean, guys, it doesn't matter how right you are about something. Don't be a giant annoying douchebag about it. I mean, that's 90% of the reason I end up arguing with Sunic in the first place, don't make me take his side on that same fucking issue. And now they're dragging that baggage into this one? Real classy. Seriously, stop whining. It's gone. If you're afraid something's going to be deleted, make backups, but don't be an ass about it. You're not helping your chances of keeping it here, dumbass.
rs
EDIT: Also, dammit guys. Now we're going to have to worry about jewel thieves. SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE.

There was a thread deleted by Sunic because people were doing exactly that. And now people are basically bitching about it, despite them being the reason the thread had to go (dragging in all the bitching and flailfests and whining from other threads into it). So now they're taking cheap shots at someone who can't defend themselves due to a temporary suspension.

So basically, to pretty much everyone doing that, it's in shitty taste and bad form.

In other news, DeBeers Corporation has hired assassins to take out competitors selling diamonds cheaper than them. Discuss.

I didn't start it.
And BTW: Sunic got suspended? Like in "temporary banned"? O_o Wierd. Does the moderation actualy do their job in here?

"Sorry Sunic_Flames, you are banned from posting or sending personal messages on this forum. After being warned, continued to degrade the boards and continue mission of "purging with fire"-- temp ban of 1 week to see if there is improvement without user. If it's the same, he will be welcomed back."

Just means some of us are going to have to start actually watching the threads again and do the job that he's been doing for us. So... those of us who, you know, advocate the intermarriage of roleplay and rollplay and making viable characters who can hold their own in combat without being massive resource sinks more active. Probably not to the extent of CAPping builds (to borrow his term), but you know, advocating viability over nonsensically creating characters who can't actually hold up their end in combat; since, you know, the biggest part of the PHB (not counting the spells section) is the section that deals with combat - pages 133-160, the next largest section being the EQUIPMENT section. (Spells dwarfs both, coming in at 123 pages.)

Is it the most important part of the game? It's the most lethal. And dead characters can't roleplay. And don't bring in undead characters or ghosts - we only just now got the Hood spam to stop. So yeah. Threads like this are necessary for proper character optimization, and people taking potshots at the person who transferred it over just shuts down communication between people wanting help and those willing to give it.

[Agita]

I son't see anything about, you know, optimizing by the numbers here. Bo-ring.
Overall, I agree that lans's post was uncalled for, given that I already did the grunt work for anyone who wants to save it - few posts above his, no less.
So, can we go back to talking about the data presented and how to replace the data from the critter filter without someone having to go through their whole D&D collection?

Also, I've been thinking - should the table have an entry for full attack bonus as well, and how would that be done? The big problem is that individual monsters often have multiple attack bonuses, with some being used for more than one attack, some being touch attacks, others not, some being iteratives, secondary natural attacks... Save DCs are perhaps another area of interest, and honestly probably easier to figure out, since most abilities on a given monster will have the same DC - being usually based off Str or Con if (Ex) or Cha if (Su). There's still the issue of spellcasting monsters and SLAs of different levels, though. In both cases, averaging all values for a given monster is easiest, but I have a feeling that that would horrendously falsify a lot of data.

[veekie]

Number of attacks, accuracy per attack and damage per attack seems to merit some further examination.

[Mixster]

Just means some of us are going to have to start actually watching the threads again and do the job that he's been doing for us. So... those of us who, you know, advocate the intermarriage of roleplay and rollplay and making viable characters who can hold their own in combat without being massive resource sinks more active. Probably not to the extent of CAPping builds (to borrow his term), but you know, advocating viability over nonsensically creating characters who can't actually hold up their end in combat; since, you know, the biggest part of the PHB (not counting the spells section) is the section that deals with combat - pages 133-160, the next largest section being the EQUIPMENT section. (Spells dwarfs both, coming in at 123 pages.)

Is it the most important part of the game? It's the most lethal. And dead characters can't roleplay. And don't bring in undead characters or ghosts - we only just now got the Hood spam to stop. So yeah. Threads like this are necessary for proper character optimization, and people taking potshots at the person who transferred it over just shuts down communication between people wanting help and those willing to give it.

This is actually true, and a lot of us are trying to advocate this.

Well, we could at least all civil up then. There's been a lot of acting like 4 year olds these last months. From both camps.

I for one don't even understand why people seem to have organised themselves into two groups.

[veekie]

I for one don't even understand why people seem to have organised themselves into two groups.

Politics, it's easier to not think when it's Us and Them.

More to the point though, I personally think that you are allowed a certain degree of sub par choices in the name of character variety. Making those choices uninformed is sad, not bad.
Making those choices with full awareness of where that leaves you in terms of effectiveness, and using countermeasures to deal with the worst of the drawbacks, not so much. Optimization by the numbers give you exactly the information you need to decide how far down you can slip before you stop becoming a less effective member(optimized fighters don't contribute quite as much as casters, but they do bring some oomph to the show, and even unoptimized melee is generally ok-ish at dishing out damage) of the party and start becoming an outright liability(VoP + anything not T2+).

[oslecamo]

I for one don't even understand why people seem to have organised themselves into two groups.

Politics, it's easier to not think when it's Us and Them.

More to the point though, I personally think that you are allowed a certain degree of sub par choices in the name of character variety. Making those choices uninformed is sad, not bad.
Making those choices with full awareness of where that leaves you in terms of effectiveness, and using countermeasures to deal with the worst of the drawbacks, not so much. Optimization by the numbers give you exactly the information you need to decide how far down you can slip before you stop becoming a less effective member(optimized fighters don't contribute quite as much as casters, but they do bring some oomph to the show, and even unoptimized melee is generally ok-ish at dishing out damage) of the party and start becoming an outright liability(VoP + anything not T2+).

+1 to both acounts. There's plenty of middle ground between "Pimped fullcaster" and "CW samurai with VoP".

[juton]

I for one don't even understand why people seem to have organised themselves into two groups.

Politics, it's easier to not think when it's Us and Them.

More to the point though, I personally think that you are allowed a certain degree of sub par choices in the name of character variety. Making those choices uninformed is sad, not bad.
Making those choices with full awareness of where that leaves you in terms of effectiveness, and using countermeasures to deal with the worst of the drawbacks, not so much. Optimization by the numbers give you exactly the information you need to decide how far down you can slip before you stop becoming a less effective member(optimized fighters don't contribute quite as much as casters, but they do bring some oomph to the show, and even unoptimized melee is generally ok-ish at dishing out damage) of the party and start becoming an outright liability(VoP + anything not T2+).

+1 to both acounts. There's plenty of middle ground between "Pimped fullcaster" and "CW samurai with VoP".

I agree.

In the games I've played in, PCs they weren't fullcasters were still able to contribute in a positive way. Sub-optimal in not the same thing as being useless.

[Bauglir]

I for one don't even understand why people seem to have organised themselves into two groups.

Politics, it's easier to not think when it's Us and Them.

More to the point though, I personally think that you are allowed a certain degree of sub par choices in the name of character variety. Making those choices uninformed is sad, not bad.
Making those choices with full awareness of where that leaves you in terms of effectiveness, and using countermeasures to deal with the worst of the drawbacks, not so much. Optimization by the numbers give you exactly the information you need to decide how far down you can slip before you stop becoming a less effective member(optimized fighters don't contribute quite as much as casters, but they do bring some oomph to the show, and even unoptimized melee is generally ok-ish at dishing out damage) of the party and start becoming an outright liability(VoP + anything not T2+).

+1 to both acounts. There's plenty of middle ground between "Pimped fullcaster" and "CW samurai with VoP".

I agree.

In the games I've played in, PCs they weren't fullcasters were still able to contribute in a positive way. Sub-optimal in not the same thing as being useless.

Agreed. This thread is invaluable for figuring out where in that middle ground you're likely to fall, and if somebody finds (or, Maker willing, creates) a database with data for books beyond Core, that would be pretty much ideal.