Author Topic: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5  (Read 12470 times)

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Negative Zero

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2009, 03:36:50 AM »
Fractional BAB and Fractional Saves, almost certainly from Unearthed Arcana.

Surreal

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2009, 03:44:58 AM »
Then there's the Arcane Duelist, which is pretty weak but has a capstone which is frigging insane. Until level 10, stick it on a white dragonspawn loredrake venerable dragonwrought kobold. :p
You also get free damage when you combine Dextrous Attack with power attack and all it's multipliers. The prereqs state proficiency with finesse/light weapons, but the abilities don't have any such restriction (and you can just wield a rapier with both hands). Take a 2H weapon, PA for full then use DA for full. Net result is your attack bonus is the same, but you add your BAB to your damage. If you had PA multipliers, then it just got better. Combine this with Shock Trooper and you have an overall net bonus to your charge attacks.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2009, 01:29:13 PM »
Am I just stupid or does Incantatrix 3 not belong in a gish build asap? Persistent Wraithstrike at low levels seems delicious to me. Am I just wrong? With Wizard 6 you get +3 BAB. With Swiftblade 10 you get +10 and with Incantatrix 4 you get another +2. Oh. I see what the problem is. We don't get our final attack from BAB post epic. :-/ I doubt most people will ever see epic play. I wonder what our BAB would be if we use the rule that allows you to add the fractions you get from BAB and Saves. I don't remember what it's called or where to find it. Can anyone assist?
This is why I think building a "gish" is a trap, anyway, and that you're usually better off just building a caster, and buffing yourself with things like Divine Power if you want to melee. You're heavily reliant on buffs as a gish to be effective anyway, so you might as well go "whole hog". In general, you get a lot better class abilities from full casting classes than from "gish" classes, anyway, as WotC highly overvalued BAB (as do most gish builders).

From this standpoint, an Incantatrix/Initiate of the 7fold Veil is probably the best "gish" build there is, as they can buff the holy hell out of themselves and their veils will allow them to keep those buffs even if they're subjected to an Antimagic Field.
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Prime32

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2009, 02:30:25 PM »
Jesus christ... I don't think I'd ever read that carefully...

Yeah, holy crap. It's usable once per class level per day rather than once per day as I thought it was, and at minimum, you're getting in five full attacks, each with an extra attack slapped on. Shame about the poor BaB the class gets, though.
Divine Power can fix that. :D
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Or if you're attacking, like, a warforged or an undead or anything immune to nonlethal.
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Yeah, was going to mention that. Is there a way to turn the nonlethal damage into something else? Because otherwise it's fairly tame.
5 full attacks with extra attacks, 10 times per day, is TAME?  :lol Have a bard around to load them up with Dragonfire Inspiration, or something. Besides, it's not like everything you fight will be immune to non-lethal.

Note that it only affects the same foe once per day. No combining this with Time Stands Still.

Also, this class gets +6 or higher weapons.
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mans0011

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2009, 03:10:00 PM »
Am I just stupid or does Incantatrix 3 not belong in a gish build asap? Persistent Wraithstrike at low levels seems delicious to me. Am I just wrong? With Wizard 6 you get +3 BAB. With Swiftblade 10 you get +10 and with Incantatrix 4 you get another +2. Oh. I see what the problem is. We don't get our final attack from BAB post epic. :-/ I doubt most people will ever see epic play. I wonder what our BAB would be if we use the rule that allows you to add the fractions you get from BAB and Saves. I don't remember what it's called or where to find it. Can anyone assist?
This is why I think building a "gish" is a trap, anyway, and that you're usually better off just building a caster, and buffing yourself with things like Divine Power if you want to melee. You're heavily reliant on buffs as a gish to be effective anyway, so you might as well go "whole hog". In general, you get a lot better class abilities from full casting classes than from "gish" classes, anyway, as WotC highly overvalued BAB (as do most gish builders).

From this standpoint, an Incantatrix/Initiate of the 7fold Veil is probably the best "gish" build there is, as they can buff the holy hell out of themselves and their veils will allow them to keep those buffs even if they're subjected to an Antimagic Field.

Agreed, Phaedrus. I'm looking at either Cloistered Cleric, abusing Divine MM and travel devotion or Incantatrix and maybe putting Arcane Disciple in there. I dunno about that, though. I kinda like Lycanthromancer's idea of an egoist who buffs the hell out of his psicrystal and orders it to kill. Is that something we can do with familiars? Maybe give up your familiar for some good ACF and then take Obtain Familiar + Improved familiar? I dunno.
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2009, 03:24:51 PM »
Psicrystals are just plain better than familiars, in general, and there are also no rules on how to replace a psicrystal, or if there are any penalties for it dying. You explicitly get donkey punched if your familiar dies.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

mans0011

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2009, 03:30:30 PM »
Fair enough. Donkey punches suck!
OOC-well for that matter he could just ride on my sword, that's about 15' ;)
OOC - That's what SHE said!  But, otherwise, that works for me, if you guys are willing.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2009, 04:10:49 PM »
Well, you still have the Psicrystal Affinity feat if your psicrystal dies, meaning you should still have a functional psicrystal until you lose the feat.

Make sure you ask the DM what he says before you go this route.
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Khorus

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2009, 04:12:15 PM »
Wizard / Battle Sorc stalwart variant complete mage or arcane can't remember and Spell shield variant from dugeonscape / Ultimate magus / abjurant champion.
Use the sorc spells to fuel metamagic, and to soak damage. Abjurant chamion for more hit Die better bab and some abjuration goodness. I think this gives you 9th lvl spells in both but I can't remember AFB.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2009, 05:41:31 PM »
Make sure you ask the DM what he says before you go this route.
Exactly. I've seen the full range of answers from "it works exactly like a familiar" to "you get another one after meditating for a day, and they have their own feats, BAB, etc".
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2009, 05:45:35 PM »
<snip>"it works exactly like a familiar"</snip>

I have to say that this one is crap. You lose the benefit of a feat for an entire year and a day, AND lose a boatload of XP?

I never use familiars because of that, and I certainly wouldn't waste a feat on something that's more a liability than anything else.

No wonder familiars have a tendency to 'disappear' and be ignored. Nobody wants to get screwed.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »
<snip>"it works exactly like a familiar"</snip>

I have to say that this one is crap. You lose the benefit of a feat for an entire year and a day, AND lose a boatload of XP?

I never use familiars because of that, and I certainly wouldn't waste a feat on something that's more a liability than anything else.

No wonder familiars have a tendency to 'disappear' and be ignored. Nobody wants to get screwed.
Well, you can get a familiar for a feat, too (Obtain Familiar), and it works exactly like a normal familiar. So, yeah. I've also seen DMs who didn't enforce all the penalties if your familiar dies, and most DMs don't usually just viciously go after familiars IMX. If they did, then yeah, I'd be hesitant to use one, also. Do note that familiars can be Raised, and don't lose anything from it, too. So the 1 year thing is only for low level guys who can't afford a Raise Dead.

Also, if you've multiclassed into a PrC (and who hasn't...), the XP loss isn't that horrific, since it's based on your wiz/sorc levels. You make the save, and lose a few hundred XP, which is not much worse than if you'd cast Limited Wish or something. You get all the best familiar benefits by 5th level, anyway, and even if you drop out at 3rd (for Master Specialist or something), you don't miss much.

Although, this means that you're actually better off with your normal familiar as a multiclassed caster than you are getting one from Obtain Familiar. :D
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 06:02:40 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]