Author Topic: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5  (Read 12468 times)

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Daytranno

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Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« on: March 13, 2009, 07:11:26 AM »
Hi all,

I am new to 3.5 Edition.  I have been playing DnD since 1980 or so but I am recently going through my first campaign as a player in 3.5.  I am currently playing a Duskblade.  He is a fun character and I plan playing him straight through to 20 if I don't die. 

As a second character, in a parallel campaign, I would like to make a gish type character.  I am looking to recreate a lot of what the Duskblade has but hopefully get access to more spells and Casting levels by giving up the some things.  I may consider dipping in to Duskblade but I wouldn't want to spend much time under that exact class again.

I am barred by my DM from using the BoED and any Campaign specific reference books (Forgotten Realms etc).

I am looking for something that will gain 9th level spells (Wizard or Sorc types), but get a high BAB.  I don't need a plethora of weapons, but those that I do I want to hit hard with.  I am not as concerned with skills, or saves for this character.  The character must fall in to the more common humanoid types, such as Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling etc.  Nothing with any kind of level penalty.  Also, my spells can be somewhat limited in number and or scope, I would just like to build them up higher than the 5th level allowed by Duskblades. 

I have searched these forums quite a bit and have gotten lost in the myriad of possibilities.  Some specific direction would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much in advance.

Prime32

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 08:29:21 AM »
Possible builds:

Focused specialist (conjurer) wizard/swordsage/jade phoenix mage
Battle sorcerer/swiftblade/abjurant champion
Psychic warrior 20
Warlock specialising in eldritch glaive/martial class (not high-level spells, but you can cast them at will and get rather unique abilities)


Alternately, see if your DM allows this class (and houserules that its Supernatural abilities work with Arcane Strike)


What kind of spells do you want to cast? Battlefield control (such as forcecage) will be the most powerful, but you could go for self-buffs, blasting spells or "tricksy stuff".
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 08:35:54 AM by Prime32 »
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Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 10:57:29 AM »
A focused Transmuter will get more mileage than a focused conjuror, in my view, since you've got all kinds of tasty buffs.

I like the Psychic Warrior 20 or the Human Wizard(transmuter focused specialist) 5/Fighter1/Eldritch Knight X/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword1. Lose 2 caster levels, get BAB of 17, Caster level 18, 9th level spells, loads and loads of great buffs like Prismatic Sphere (which, actually, might be Evocation now that I think about it), Haste, and all those tasty transmuter things.

There's also Telflammer Shadowlord, but I've only heard of it and I don't know for sure if it advances casting. It's also technically a Forgotten Realms or Faerun or whatever thing, but it's super cool.

Anyway, I like either Psychic warrior 20 or the transmuter gish. Use the martial variant wizard to get improved initiative for free.

Endarire

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 03:04:34 PM »
Human Barbarian1 (Lion Totem & Whirling Frenzy)/Martial Transmuter5/Ruathar3/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch KnightX.

You can cast as a level 18 Wizard at 20 and have at least 16 BAB.  'Til level 14 you're 1 level behind a Wizard in spell acquisition.  At level 16, you're 2 levels behind, but that's a minor sacrifice.

I advise normal Transmuter since you won't lose general slots for conjurations or abjurations.  Ban Enchantment and decide if you want contingency, sonorous hum, and wall of force for Evocation or shivering touch, false life, and veil of undeath for Necromancy.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 03:25:05 PM »
Dwarf fighter 1/wizard 8/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10. 18th level casting, BAB +16, good hit points, simple, mostly core. Can wear a mithril twilight breastplate and use an animated heavy mithril shield.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 03:44:40 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 03:30:39 PM »
Egoist 20.

Really, you just buff the heck out of your psicrystal from a distance, and order it to kill.

You don't even have to put yourself in harm's way.
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Daytranno

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 04:58:53 PM »
Thanks for the help so far.

I am finding out I am barred for using Psionics, so taht is also narrowing my class choices a bit. 

Why is the Transmuter recommended over and over again over something else?

I like the suggestions so far, just wondering WHY I should choose certain things over others, that is the most confusing part for me at the moment. 

I don't mind being in melee to have to cast spells, that part is fine, and any possible spell failure I can deal with but I'd like to mitigate that as much as reasonably possible.  It seems that 18th level casting 16 BAB is a typical target, is there a way to exchange to two?  In other words, more BAB less spell casting or is that the best balance?

Soda

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 05:01:33 PM »
I don't mind being in melee to have to cast spells, that part is fine, and any possible spell failure I can deal with but I'd like to mitigate that as much as reasonably possible.  It seems that 18th level casting 16 BAB is a typical target, is there a way to exchange to two?  In other words, more BAB less spell casting or is that the best balance?
BAB is just a few points to hit. 9th level spells are the most powerful... power.

RobbyPants

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 05:03:40 PM »
I've always been fond of the sorcadin:

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8
You end up with BAB +16 and 18th caster level.

If you're looking for something much more simple (but not as strong), consider utilizing the battle sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana.  It's not great, but it's easy.  Two possible builds:
Battle Sorcerer 15/Abjurant Champion 5
BAB +16, 20th caster level (although you get fewer spells)

or

Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 13/Abjurant Champion 5
BAB +16, 18th caster level, better weapons, +cha to saves.  You can wear mithril fullplate with the Battle Caster feat.
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bogsnes

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 05:04:27 PM »
I don't mind being in melee to have to cast spells, that part is fine, and any possible spell failure I can deal with but I'd like to mitigate that as much as reasonably possible.  It seems that 18th level casting 16 BAB is a typical target, is there a way to exchange to two?  In other words, more BAB less spell casting or is that the best balance?
BAB is just a few points to hit. 9th level spells are the most powerful... power.

In the whole game by far!

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 05:06:01 PM »
Why is the Transmuter recommended over and over again over something else?
Because gishes use a lot of their spells for buffing themselves, and lots of good buffs are transmutations.
Quote
I don't mind being in melee to have to cast spells, that part is fine, and any possible spell failure I can deal with but I'd like to mitigate that as much as reasonably possible.  It seems that 18th level casting 16 BAB is a typical target, is there a way to exchange to two?  In other words, more BAB less spell casting or is that the best balance?
You can easily have 0% spell failure chance while still wearing armor, and the main thing to avoid with any caster is losing caster levels. As a gish, you're still mostly a caster. You just use your spells to buff yourself, instead of doing something else with them. A few points of lost BAB hardly matter at all. BAB +16 is only really important if you plan on playing into the epic levels, as it gets you your last iterative attack, which otherwise you'd never get if you didn't have BAB +16 by 20th level.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Jvirtue55

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 07:16:38 PM »
The Abjurant Champion from the complete Mage is a must its one of the best Prestige classes and i really like the Paladin Sorcerer idea also

Daytranno

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 07:17:43 PM »
Ok thank you for all the help thus far, the fog is starting to lift.

I notice, Spellsword 1 used in a lot of gish builds.  This nets you the Ignore spell failure in Light Armor and doesn't cost you progression in a caster level, but it also does not net you the ability to channel spells through your weapon (that is 4th level I believe) and you would have fallen two caster levels behind by this time.  Is there any reason other than the Ignore Spell Failure to spice in a Spellsword 1 over some other class?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 07:56:17 PM »
Ok thank you for all the help thus far, the fog is starting to lift.

I notice, Spellsword 1 used in a lot of gish builds.  This nets you the Ignore spell failure in Light Armor and doesn't cost you progression in a caster level, but it also does not net you the ability to channel spells through your weapon (that is 4th level I believe) and you would have fallen two caster levels behind by this time.  Is there any reason other than the Ignore Spell Failure to spice in a Spellsword 1 over some other class?
It gets you +1 BAB, +1 spellcaster level, and +2 to the only saves that really matter (Fort and Will), and most gish characters qualify automatically. The -10% arcane spell failure is nice, but not necessary. (It has nothing to do with light armor). Channel spells is not worth losing caster levels over. That's why most people only take 1 level of it.

Abjurant Champion is very nice. I forgot to include it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 07:57:40 PM »
Spellsword is generally regarded as suboptimal because of the lost caster levels. Really, you'd be better served by getting a spell storing weapon, or even multiclassing into duskblade, because duskblade's uses/day are uncapped and you can channel any spell that you know. You only lose 1 caster level more over your 3 level duskblade dip, anyway.

Also BAB is just a number. Wraithstrike is just a second level spell. But a level 2 wraithstrike makes your +16 BAB a tasty +32 damage per hit. Most of the time.

Sorcadin is also loads of fun, though I prefer to couple Paladin with Divine Crusader or some tome of battle stuff. Really, martial adepts captured the gish feeling perfectly. I don't really even make gishes anymore, I do martial adepts. Sometimes I do martial adept gishes.

Prime32

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 08:27:10 PM »
I am finding out I am barred for using Psionics, so taht is also narrowing my class choices a bit.
Psionics makes good gishes, since it can be used in armour.

Someone find a link to the "Why Psionics is not broken" thread, so his DM can read it. The most important thing is YOU CANNOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL.

Also note that powers do not scale automatically like spells - you have to spend more pp to deal more than basic damage, etc. and that cuts into the metapsionics you can apply as well.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 08:29:39 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Agita

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 08:51:49 PM »
I am finding out I am barred for using Psionics, so taht is also narrowing my class choices a bit.
Psionics makes good gishes, since it can be used in armour.

Someone find a link to the "Why Psionics is not broken" thread, so his DM can read it. The most important thing is YOU CANNOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A SINGLE POWER THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL.

Also note that powers do not scale automatically like spells - you have to spend more pp to deal more than basic damage, etc. and that cuts into the metapsionics you can apply as well.
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Endarire

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2009, 10:56:38 PM »
A +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt costs 1100 (shirt) + 4000 (enchants) or 5100.  It has no armor check penalty or spell failure chance.

For a shield, nab a Darkwood Feycraft (Dungeon Master's Guide II 275) Buckler.  No ACP or ASF and cheaper than Mithril.

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NG or CG Dragonborn Water Half-Orc (Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian1/Martial Transmuter5/Ruathar3/Abjurant Champion5/Eldritch Knight6

1: {Aggressive OR Spellgifted: Transmutation}, Battle Jump, Leap of the Heavens, [literacy], [Pounce], Practiced Caster: Wizard, {Quick}
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**If you can, get an unslotted item that continually grants the Combat Casting feat.  Similar to the ioun stone that grants Alertness, this unslotted item should cost 6-15K.

Battle Jump, of massive and near vital importance to your build, is a [Fighter] feat from Unapproachable East, a Faerun book, and only available at level 1.  See Little Red Raiding Hood for more info.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2009, 11:23:59 PM »
Really, the simplest, easiest, and most balanced possible gish you could make is the psychic warrior. It doesn't require a multiclassing nightmare, PrCs are totally optional, and it's widely considered the most balanced class in any book ever printed.

Its only real drawback is a rather severe lack of stamina, but a clever build will mostly circumvent that.

*Cracks knuckles* Maybe you should pull your DM in, so we can have a little...chat. :p
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

sonofzeal

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Re: Help with building a gish type character for a newbie to 3.5
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2009, 11:30:45 PM »
Ask your DM if he's allow Psionics as long as {a} you call them "internal martial arts", and {b} you pick your power list with that theme in mind.