Optimising sucking PrCs/builds

[BowenSilverclaw]

Monk 1 with Kung Fu Genius?

[PhaedrusXY]

Monk 1 with Kung Fu Genius?

...stomps the crap out of the whole duelist class.

I was going to post a link to a build I'd made that used duelist... until I went back and actually looked at it, and realized that in the end I'd taken all the Duelist levels out of it. 

[jameswilliamogle]

Just reread duelist -

When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

So...  Assuming an Int of 16...  and Duelist 3...  I read this as adding 9 to the AC.  Is that true?

Also, everything they do relies on one-handed piercing weapons...  Crossbow monster?  Maybe with IUS to keep this ability?  Or just mount a pointy stick on the end of it?

[PhaedrusXY]

Just reread duelist -

When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

So...  Assuming an Int of 16...  and Duelist 3...  I read this as adding 9 to the AC.  Is that true?

Also, everything they do relies on one-handed piercing weapons...  Crossbow monster?  Maybe with IUS to keep this ability?

No, it would add 3 to the AC. 1 point of Int bonus per class level is the limit. Also, it requires you to be wielding a melee weapon.

[jameswilliamogle]

No, it would add 3 to the AC. 1 point of Int bonus per class level is the limit. Also, it requires you to be wielding a melee weapon.

Is that in the FAQ (b/c I translate differently, as written; you know, Int bonus (to max of duelist level) x duelist level)?  I bet it is...  Anyways, IUS was for the melee stuff, or a crossbow w/ spike.

EDIT: couldn't find any errata of FAQ on it... hrm...  could this be a case of we've always assumed one way, which might not be right?  I used to think it was the way everyone describes, but rereading... hrm...

[PhaedrusXY]

No, it would add 3 to the AC. 1 point of Int bonus per class level is the limit. Also, it requires you to be wielding a melee weapon.

Is that in the FAQ (b/c I translate differently, as written; you know, Int bonus (to max of duelist level) x duelist level)?  I bet it is...  Anyways, IUS was for the melee stuff, or a crossbow w/ spike.

I really don't understand how it could possibly be read that way. It seems very clear. In 3.0, IIRC the bonus was just your Int bonus to AC, and it was uncapped. With the 3.5 conversion, they added the 1 point per class level cap, making it crappy.

[jameswilliamogle]

No, it would add 3 to the AC. 1 point of Int bonus per class level is the limit. Also, it requires you to be wielding a melee weapon.

Is that in the FAQ (b/c I translate differently, as written; you know, Int bonus (to max of duelist level) x duelist level)?  I bet it is...  Anyways, IUS was for the melee stuff, or a crossbow w/ spike.

I really don't understand how it could possibly be read that way. It seems very clear.

nm, im tired

I was reading it as multiplying Int bonus (capped by Duelist level) x Duelist level; I realize I was smoking crack now, although the wording could work for an Int 13 Duelist to get a full 10 AC out of 10 levels.

[PhaedrusXY]

I was reading it as multiplying Int bonus (capped by Duelist level) x Duelist level; I realize I was smoking crack now, although the wording could work for an Int 13 Duelist to get a full 10 AC out of 10 levels.

Now THAT is a good point, and I think you're right. Very interesting.

[Surreal]

Hmm... XYZ 5/Tattooed Monk 5/Legacy Champion 10

Nets you 7 tattoos total (compared to the normal 5). Not that great, but not too shabby either, especially with those whose limits are based on the number of tattoos you possess. I've seen some record attempts using the Bellflower tattoo multiple times in order to crank Charisma.

[sonofzeal]

Duelist.  Good lord, duelist.

The best I could come up with was Rogue4/Swash3/Duelist7/Invisible Blade5/x1, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS, fighting defensively, so you have an actual AC.

At one point, before I had ToB, I wanted to build a Halfling weilding a dagger in one hand, nothing in the other hand, totally unarmored, who didn't rely on stealth, and was designed to fight humanoids with class levels instead of MonMan fodder.  What I ended up with was Swashbuckler 3 / Fighter 6 / Invisible Blade 5 / Duelist 4 / Monk 2; had 51 AC and saves of 25/30/24.  Attack line was +28/+28/+23/+18/+13(1d4+26 +4d6sneak), and only marginally worse in an AMF.  That was her primary strategy btw - Torc of AMF, negate most buffs and defenses, and kill them by inches.  AC in an AMF was still 32, high enough that most PCs would have trouble without magical support; and she was still getting 27/27/22/etc to attack in the AMF, meaning she could hit just about anyone now that their magical boosts are down.  Otherwise, it was all about Feinting as a free action with a +50 Bluff mod.

So yeah, IMO that's the good use of Duelist - getting another source of AC that works inside an AMF, for use against PCs who don't have the ridiculous attack mods that monsters generally seem to.