Author Topic: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds  (Read 5905 times)

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bogsnes

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Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« on: March 10, 2009, 11:25:35 AM »
Do what the title says :P

Find a REALLY bad PrC or a really weak build option and optimise it with feats and other tricks (try to keep it close to what the PrC is meant to do...)

Like Druid 19/Blighter 1 (If I remember correctly, the Blighter makes you lose spellcasting and other things from the Druid...

woodenbandman

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 11:31:32 AM »
Druid 19/Blighter1 is literally unoptimizable. Any build with blighter levels makes the build weaker than it would've been without blighter levels.

bogsnes

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 11:32:48 AM »
Druid 19/Blighter1 is literally unoptimizable. Any build with blighter levels makes the build weaker than it would've been without blighter levels.

Which is why I picked that PrC :P

Rebel7284

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 12:42:52 PM »
Druid 19/Blighter1 is literally unoptimizable.

True

Any build with blighter levels makes the build weaker than it would've been without blighter levels.

Generalization false.  The blighter does get 9th level spells in 9 levels.  Dual progression PrCs love that.  Of course Ur Priest is better most of the time...
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RobbyPants

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 12:51:56 PM »
Max UMD? :p

This seems like the opposite end of the TO spectrum.
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TheWordSlinger

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 01:21:37 PM »
Druid 19/Blighter1 is literally unoptimizable.

True

Any build with blighter levels makes the build weaker than it would've been without blighter levels.

Generalization false.  The blighter does get 9th level spells in 9 levels.  Dual progression PrCs love that.  Of course Ur Priest is better most of the time...
Could a Blighter/SublimeChord qualify for Mystic Theruge/Arcane Hierophant?
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woodenbandman

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 02:02:16 PM »
No, really, you are always weaker by taking blighter, because you lose ALL your druid class features. Without any funky RAI abuse, the Blighter has 5 dead levels from the first time you ever see it, and at level 15 it gets 9th level spells from a crappy list, and even if you do a dual progression, you've still got 5 dead levels, and probably a really crap low caster level. A 15th level druid and a 15th level blighter could square off and the druid would win every time because the druid has 8th level spells and 3 paths to power, while the blighter has only 1 because he can't keep up with the druid's paths to power, as he only has 1 (he's got no AC, and he's 5 levels behind the wildshape arms race). The druid uses holly berry bombs from the air and laughs.

Also, no dice on AH because you lose your Animal Companion.

For giggles, let's compare a druid 20 to a theoretical Druid5/Blighter2/Bard4/Sublime Chord2/Mystic Theurge 8 and pretend that it works for both ninth level arcane spells and ninth level divine spells. The proposed theoretical build is still sorely MAD, while the druid has incredible saves and AC due to his +5 wild dragonhide fullplate, high con and wis, monk's belt + wildling clasp, and any number of ridiculous buffs and stuff. Also, he has freedom of movement, extended bite of the Foo, greenbound summons out the butt, an animal companion rocking nature's avatar, which shares his buffs... there is no way that a blighter who qualifies for the class normally will be more powerful than a druid.

Akalsaris

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 06:58:50 PM »
I recall a thread on optimizing blighters about 2-3 pages back.

My personal conclusion is that in the mid-levels, it can be as effective or better than a druid - you gain 9th level spells 3 levels earlier than a standard druid, and huge wildshape 1 level earlier.  At the early and late levels though it is terrible.

So yeah...an optimized blighter would be one in a 14th level 1-shot game.

InnaBinder

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 07:04:53 PM »
 :backtotopic
Getting away from the Blighter issue, here's another tough one to optimize reasonably:
Ranger 10/Wavekeeper 10.

Advantages: Feats are not inhibited; you get 9/10 casting (though from a pretty crapshoot list).

Disadvantages: Wavekeeper.  No Beastmaster to aid the companion.  No Druid levels.  Yeah.
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Eldariel

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 07:50:04 PM »
Let's see, Rage Mage? Only thing I can come up with is fractional BAB for a Desert Kobold Bard 1/Battle Sorcerer 3/Barbarian 1/Rage Mage 5/Sublime Chord 2/Rage Mage +3/Abjurant Champion 5 using Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to qualify on level 10.


Prolly needs to take Dragonwrought just to get enough Int to get the skills to qualify for Sublime Chord & Weapon Finesse + Ferocity or Planar Touchstone > Frantic Rage to get anything out of the Rage & melee abilities & Extra Rage to ever have enough Spell Rages to do anything. And even then you'd need three feats to get Shadow Blade to really do anything with all that Dex.

So yea, with Flaws & Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, it may be functional level 13+. What a pile. Anything less gives up 9th level spells before Epic, and even this gets them on 20, no sooner. At least it has 16 BAB by 20. Note, the goal was to get to the only worthwhile class feature of Rage Mage, "Spell fury" it gets on level 7.

Bozwevial

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 08:18:41 PM »
Oh, I can think of a few for proposal: Shining Blade of Heironeous and Master of Masks. I defy anyone to pimp out a SBoH.

woodenbandman

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 08:52:58 PM »
Master of Masks is actually quite not horrible. A 1 level dip gets you EWP: All :D

Bozwevial

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 09:23:53 PM »
Master of Masks is okay, but I have rarely seen a bigger waste of time than SBoH. Well, maybe. What was that class from CPsi, the Stormwalker?

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 10:40:31 PM »
I recall a thread on optimizing blighters about 2-3 pages back.

My personal conclusion is that in the mid-levels, it can be as effective or better than a druid - you gain 9th level spells 3 levels earlier than a standard druid, and huge wildshape 1 level earlier.  At the early and late levels though it is terrible.

So yeah...an optimized blighter would be one in a 14th level 1-shot game.
Me too...

Bard 4 / Druid 1 / Fighter 1 / Blighter 1 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Nar Demonbinder 1 / Mystic Theurge +7 / Blighter +3

Trick(s) for early entry: Use Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell to cross-cast a 3rd level Druid spell using Bard slots, then when Blighter advancement picks up use Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten to cross-cast a 2nd level Blighter spell for Mystic Theurge entry, then again for a 4th level Summon Monster spell from the Bard list.

Otherwise, needs Iron Will and Spell Focus(Conjuration)

Terminal Blighter and Nar-Demonbinder casting, 6th level Bardic casting, and 4 feats free (5 if human).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 10:51:03 PM by jameswilliamogle »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2009, 01:05:04 AM »
Might as well enter my fighter 7 build. 

Fighter 7/Divine Crusader3/Rainbow Servant 10

Magical Training lets you qualify for Alternative Source Spell at 9, Alternative source spell lets you qualify for Rainbow servant with Divine Crusader.  Rainbow servant gives you a decent spell list, divine crusader gives you 9th level spells in 9 levels.

You need full BaB to qualify for Divine Crusader at 7, so the odd number of fighter levels are an integral part.  Sort of.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2009, 01:44:22 AM »
I've managed to pimp CW Samurai before (for certain values of "pimp"), using only CW and Core.  I might dig it out and polish it up if people ask.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2009, 01:49:57 AM »
Druid 19/Blighter1 is literally unoptimizable. Any build with blighter levels makes the build weaker than it would've been without blighter levels.
Optimization is simple

Step 1: Get level drained.

Step2: Hire someone to cast atonement
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2009, 09:40:11 AM »
Druid 19/Blighter1 is literally unoptimizable. Any build with blighter levels makes the build weaker than it would've been without blighter levels.
Optimization is simple

Step 1: Get level drained.

Step2: Hire someone to cast atonement
lol!  True that!

bogsnes

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2009, 05:43:39 PM »
Or maybe we shouldn't post a full build, just a sucking PrC that you have to take many/all levels?

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Optimising sucking PrCs/builds
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2009, 06:50:59 PM »
Duelist.  Good lord, duelist.

The best I could come up with was Rogue4/Swash3/Duelist7/Invisible Blade5/x1, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS, fighting defensively, so you have an actual AC.